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  1. #111
    Ice Hole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hungryjoe View Post
    If I remember correctly a big part of the government's concern had to do with file sharing for the parts themselves. The 3D model format. I may be wrong and confusing this with another case.
    If you were watching closely, I almost accidentally posted the Infowars interview of Chris from Defense Distribution...that would have been funny.

    First this happened: Chris loses his lease for the "Wiki Weapon" project he raised $20,000 online for.

    3-D Printer Company Seizes Machine From Desktop Gunsmith: https://www.wired.com/2012/10/3d-gun-blocked/

    Until Stratasys pulled the lease, the Wiki Weapon project intended to make a fully 3-D printed pistol for the first time, though it would likely be capable of only firing a single shot until the barrel melted. Still, that would go further than the partly plastic AR-15 rifle produced by blogger and gunsmith Michael Guslick
    Then, this happened.

    3D-Printed Gun's Blueprints Downloaded 100,000 Times In Two Days (With Some Help From Kim Dotcom): https://www.forbes.com/sites/andygre.../#6ce2364410b8

    They are still available all over the internet by the way, happy hunting.

    The Department of Defense and the State Department colluded on this one, but export control again. ITAR. That is what they tried to use to shut down you and I having the luxuries of personal encryption like PGP, because terrorists.

    Take note, whatever DefDist can produce...appears to be dangerous. Encryption is dangerous. This isn't a case of Hillary or Feinstein or Trump coming for your guns.

    Pentagon and State Department saying "um...**** wtf now".
    Last edited by Ice Hole; 10/06/2017 1:27am at .

  2. #112
    Ice Hole's Avatar
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    Speaking of now, this is where the case was at as of a month or two ago.

    Can a Court Arbitrarily Conclude That 'Security' Overrules the First Amendment?
    Company asks the Supreme Court to hear its case for being allowed to put 3D printing plans for guns on its website: https://reason.com/blog/2017/08/14/s...court-arbitrar

  3. #113
    Ice Hole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by submessenger View Post
    I've just given you two, in as many posts.

    1) You claimed "printers are already out in the market specifically designed to build AR-15s stock to barrel." When queried on the barrel, you came up with a couple of handguns, which are very specifically NOT AR-15s.
    2) You claimed "You can order every single fucking thing online except for the lower receiver with the serial number," which is demonstrably false. I called you out on it, and you proceeded to tell me your conjecturing of what can be obtained on the black market.
    You are right on both counts. What can I say, I don't do "goals". I hypothesize, you invalidate. I re-hypothesize.

    Quote Originally Posted by submessenger View Post
    Honestly, I should trollshido this entire thread. Leaving just the actual content would whittle us down to about a dozen posts that would lose all context if all your shitposting was removed. "The centre cannot hold." But, this is Cassius' playground, I'll let him decide.
    You going to remove Devil's and Joe's and BKR's and your **** posts too?

    Come on, don't be that mod. This is a good discussion...so far.
    Last edited by Ice Hole; 10/06/2017 1:30am at .

  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    If you were watching closely, I almost accidentally posted the Infowars interview of Chris from Defense Distribution...that would have been funny.

    First this happened: Chris loses his lease for the "Wiki Weapon" project he raised $20,000 online for.

    3-D Printer Company Seizes Machine From Desktop Gunsmith: https://www.wired.com/2012/10/3d-gun-blocked/



    Then, this happened.

    3D-Printed Gun's Blueprints Downloaded 100,000 Times In Two Days (With Some Help From Kim Dotcom): https://www.forbes.com/sites/andygre.../#6ce2364410b8

    They are still available all over the internet by the way, happy hunting.

    The Department of Defense and the State Department colluded on this one, but export control again. ITAR. That is what they tried to use to shut down you and I having the luxuries of personal encryption like PGP, because terrorists.

    Take note, whatever DefDist can produce...appears to be dangerous. Encryption is dangerous. This isn't a case of Hillary or Feinstein or Trump coming for your guns.

    Pentagon and State Department saying "um...**** wtf now".
    Stratasys is a first rate outfit. I believe they're the largest now and bought the primary source of my printed parts. Kept the staff. If there's a problem with your build when you receive it they'll replace for free. Rarely happens.

    I believe GrabCAD still has files of assemblies for many weapons. I've never downloaded so cannot vouch for accuracy.

  5. #115
    Diesel_tke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    Yeah but except for which part again? You can order every single fucking thing online except for the lower receiver with the serial number, and life has been that way for some time now...get ready for it to end.

    Turns out, you can make a lower receiver at home, and chances are the ones they could make 4 years ago good for 600-700 rounds might have improved a bit. Back then it was an aluminum proof of concept. They can do much better.

    Take a look at the news release from Defense Distributed just 3 days old...are you kidding me? For $1200? I can 3D print that type of quality?

    I'm surprised people are so skeptical. I get that it's Bullshido, but...no, Devil's wrong about the "Star Trek" science fiction. This is available to enthusiasts to-day.

    In fact, why am I the only one who seems to know about Defense Distributed, their inventions, and their plight with the State Department? Nobody seems to want to talk about their USSC case in the gun control thread...I thought it was the most important part of the topic. But we're back to Rabbit don't know gunz, mkay.
    No one has dispute the FACT that you can print AR-15 parts. Multiple people keep stating over and over that you can print lowers online. That's easy, and as I stated earlier, pointless. They are not going to be quality lowers. But what is the point in printing a lower when I can buy one for $25 in the amount of time it takes me to drive to the gun store? Their are two different store within about 3 miles of my house that sell Omni Hybrids for $25 that have a lifetime warrantee.

    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    Can you have Phrost call up Tom Kagan or whoever and have them add a scoreboard that shows the current "goal post"?

    I notice there's always a claim of "moving goalposts", but never any discussion of what the goal was.

    My goal is pretty simple, discuss the emerging gun-fabricating capabilities of 3D printing technology. One goal, not moving.
    The moving of the goalposts keeps coming up because you explicitly stated that you can print and entire AR-15. You can not. Now you are changing it around and stating that you can buy some parts. EVERYONE else already stated that while you were still arguing that you can print every part. I brought up the roll pin. Now you are admitting that you can't print every part. So just admit that you were generalizing, and didn't really mean what you said instead of digging this deeper trying to find proof of printing these AR parts by looking at printed pistols. You are not printing springs, detents (probably could do that one), and roll pins. Thus you are not printing the entire AR-15. You are printing pieces which has been around for years and you are not bringing up any real cutting edge **** after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    Serial numbers still matter, but I think you brought up an interesting point. According to the claims about Ghost Gunner circa 2014, you can make..what...8 receivers a day with 1 GG, or multiples of it with units working in parallel. That's fast for making illegal versions of anything. With 4 machines, can build almost 12,000 receivers in one year. PROFIT!

    So, what happens when the market for AR-15 receivers gets flooded with poor 3D copies? OR, just a lot of unserialized ones?

    The whole idea of serialization becomes useless in the long run with this tech. Serial numbers only make sense when you can trust them and they're unique. Grinding them off requires you obtain a registered gun first.

    What about duplicating an existing serial number, or customizing your own with this tech? You can buy a real AR-15, replace it's receiver with a 3D version with no serial number (or someone else's). Or you carve "BKR" with a heart on it.

    Maybe now the State Department's crackdown makes sense. It's not so much about building guns at home, which is what Defense Distributed is using as their shield at the SCOTUS, the 1st Amendment thing (free speech). It's about limiting the bloom in illegal weapons parts and black markets this technology represents. This is why there's was an export control shutdown on DefDist. ITAR. It all clicks now.
    A couple things here. First of all, yes you can buy a machine to make a decent receiver at the house. You can also order a thousand blanks or 80% lowers to ship to your house and then mill them out with a basic router and jig. I've seen some that you wouldn't know were made in a garage. Wait though.....here's my point......WHY? You can buy an 80% lower for the same price of a finished lower. The only thing you are saving is the FFL fee. But then you are going to have to anodize that lower or cerekote it, which is going to cost more than the FFL fee. So you are not saving any money to get a lower with no serial number. Only people who care about that are felons who can't own firearms. None of us are felons so we can get past that.

    Now if you want to buy the $1200 machine to make one yourself, how many are you going to have to build to make up that money? You can get a lower for $35 after the FFL fee, and that is a forged, finished lower. So you are going to need to make 34 just to break even on the machine. Not counting cost of material. So now you have 34 lowers, what do you do with those? You can't sell them, you need a manufacturers license for that. There are a few people sitting in federal prison right now for that. Last one I saw was a guy in California selling them out of his garage. He is in prison and they seized everything including his house, per the law. So, you aren't going to sell them and go to prison, so what is the point of all of this? If you have that much money to just blow to make a lower with no serial number, fine. But lets admit you aren't doing anything state of the art here. You're just milling out lowers. Some people go the 80% route just for the fun of it. But you aren't saving any money or getting anything that you couldn't otherwise get readily. You are just a hobbyist.

    As far as getting a custom serial number on a lower, you can do that right now. A group of us just ordered some lowers as a group from a very prominent firearms company. Since we did this, they allowed us to prick our own serial numbers. If one already exists, just add a 0 to it. You can put Diesel556 on a receiver from a reputable company for no charge. You can even get all kinds of **** laser'd onto it. That's not a big deal.
    Combatives training log.

    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

    Drum thread

    Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.

  6. #116
    Ice Hole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel_tke View Post
    The moving of the goalposts keeps coming up because you explicitly stated that you can print and entire AR-15. You can not. Now you are changing it around and stating that you can buy some parts.
    Remember when I "explicitly stated" it, I was actually quoting no fewer than 4 WIRED headlines (e.g. "The $1,200 Machine That Lets Anyone Make a Metal Gun at Home), as well as ExtremeTech and DefenseDistributed themselves.

    I have no trouble "moving goalposts", and have no problem being wrong about a statement, because that's how the facts are discovered, outside of philosophy. You will continue to notice (as some have forgotten) that I do not even attempt to meet goals. A goal can be a bias. I lay out falsifiable statements and either run them down myself, or let you guys roll. And boy, do you.

    So far, I'd call this entire discussion productive in the sense that we've created a dissonance between what quite a few respected technical magazines have claimed in their headlines, and what the good folks at Bullshido think about it.

    Verdict: WIRED's articles are Bullshit, or at least confusing to the average reader or gun layman. I posted several criticisms of WIRED from Guns.com, in case anybody wanted to read those too.

    But, we have to keep going. There are no "goal posts" in my world, there is only the constant comparative method of grounded theory and experimentation.

    Next up to bat: what HungryJoe asked...he wants video of DefenseDistrubuted's latest (4 day old) claim. There's more bullshido afoot. I'm on it.
    Last edited by Ice Hole; 10/06/2017 2:40pm at .

  7. #117
    Nutcracker, sweet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel_tke View Post
    As far as getting a custom serial number on a lower, you can do that right now. A group of us just ordered some lowers as a group from a very prominent firearms company. Since we did this, they allowed us to prick our own serial numbers. If one already exists, just add a 0 to it. You can put Diesel556 on a receiver from a reputable company for no charge. You can even get all kinds of **** laser'd onto it. That's not a big deal.
    Forgive me for riffing on your post. Last time I checked, the common wisdom was to go ahead and imbue your completed 80% with a serial of your own design. Serves at least a couple of purposes; first and foremost, it allows you easy identification of your own weapons. The most commonly cited reason is that people are afraid of weapons that don't have a serial number - your firing range Blue Falcon types, range owner/operators, and LEO. There's still no paperwork on it, btw.

  8. #118
    Diesel_tke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by submessenger View Post
    Forgive me for riffing on your post. Last time I checked, the common wisdom was to go ahead and imbue your completed 80% with a serial of your own design. Serves at least a couple of purposes; first and foremost, it allows you easy identification of your own weapons. The most commonly cited reason is that people are afraid of weapons that don't have a serial number - your firing range Blue Falcon types, range owner/operators, and LEO. There's still no paperwork on it, btw.
    Yeah, I guess. I ordered a lower from a company a couple weeks ago and they let me pick my serial number. But to each their own. I just don't care to mess with it. I know there are a bunch of reasons. I hear all the time people talking about how they don't want serial numbers so the government can't track them. Which I laugh at. Their are so many ARs out on the market and they change hands so much, that list would be complete garbage. As far as keeping track of serial numbers, I've got all of mine documented. Easy as that. I keep a list of them in a couple places. The easiest way I have to identify my weapons is that I built them and I can tell immediately by looking at them which ones are mine. Just because I have my own certain stuff that I like on them.
    Combatives training log.

    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

    Drum thread

    Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.

  9. #119
    Ice Hole's Avatar
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    Defense Distributed is calling all you Ian Fleming-Stanley Kubrick-Call of Duty fans with this one..



    https://ghostgunner.net/

    For 80 percent receivers and frames

    No prior CNC experience required

    Ghost Gunner is specially designed to manufacture a growing library of mil-spec 80 percent lowers to completion. With simple tools and point and click software, the machine automatically finds and aligns to your 80% lower to get to work. No prior CNC knowledge or experience is required to manufacture from design files. Legally manufacture unserialized rifles and pistols in the comfort and privacy of home.
    Last edited by Ice Hole; 10/09/2017 10:18pm at .

  10. #120
    Diesel_tke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    Defense Distributed is calling all you Ian Fleming-Stanley Kubrick-Call of Duty fans with this one..



    https://ghostgunner.net/





    I'd get one but for $1675 dollars I could buy 47 stripped lowers that have warrantees. More than that (67) if I went with a polymer lower that has a lifetime warrantee.
    Combatives training log.

    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

    Drum thread

    Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.

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