Page 5 of 7 First 1234567 Last
  1. #41

    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    San Jose
    Posts
    17
    Style
    MMA
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Do you think Machida could have avoided take-downs executed by high level wrestlers (lets say at least USA D-1) under normal wrestling rule-set, say Freestyle?
    I believe the techniques that he uses work well in a D-1 wrestling, although he would have to adapt his stance and he would need to have a lot of practice in several different positions. Machida and I, plus several other D-1 wrestlers (Fitch, Koscheck, Cain), did straight up takedowns, and we had some difficulty taking him down. Did he get close to taking us down? No. However, his takedown defense (footwork and clinch) was very effective against high level wrestlers.

    He would lose in a straight wrestling match, because he would be penalized for stalling, but his techniques, footwork, sprawling, and clinch work were all top notch. Therefore, they worked very well in MMA.

  2. #42
    BKR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bonners Ferry, Idaho
    Posts
    16,616
    Style
    Kodokan Judo/BJJ
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by resonatemoore View Post
    I believe the techniques that he uses work well in a D-1 wrestling, although he would have to adapt his stance and he would need to have a lot of practice in several different positions. Machida and I, plus several other D-1 wrestlers (Fitch, Koscheck, Cain), did straight up takedowns, and we had some difficulty taking him down. Did he get close to taking us down? No. However, his takedown defense (footwork and clinch) was very effective against high level wrestlers.

    He would lose in a straight wrestling match, because he would be penalized for stalling, but his techniques, footwork, sprawling, and clinch work were all top notch. Therefore, they worked very well in MMA.
    That's pretty amazing that he was able to stop such high-level wrestlers from taking him down easily even outside of the more restrictive rule set normal wrestling.

    How did he develop such a good takedown defense?
    Falling for Judo since 1980

    "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

    "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

    "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

  3. #43

    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    San Jose
    Posts
    17
    Style
    MMA
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Do you think Machida could have avoided take-downs executed by high level wrestlers (lets say at least USA D-1) under normal wrestling rule-set, say Freestyle?
    I believe the techniques that he uses work well in a D-1 wrestling, although he would have to adapt his stance and he would need to have a lot of practice in several different positions. Machida and I, plus several other D-1 wrestlers (Fitch, Koscheck, Cain), did straight up takedowns, and we had some difficulty taking him down. Did he get close to taking us down? No. However, his takedown defense (footwork and clinch) was very effective against high level wrestlers.

    He would lose in a straight wrestling match, because he would be penalized for stalling, but his techniques, footwork, sprawling, and clinch work were all top notch, and would work well in D-1 wrestling.

  4. #44

    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    San Jose
    Posts
    17
    Style
    MMA
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    That's pretty amazing that he was able to stop such high-level wrestlers from taking him down easily even outside of the more restrictive rule set normal wrestling.

    How did he develop such a good takedown defense?
    There are a lot of fundamental footwork, balance, and grappling skills in karate, muay thai, and jiu jitsu that allowed him to move in a way (very fluid and unstationary) to kep the opponent from getting a hold of him. He moves laterally so well, that he is never in front of you.

  5. #45
    BKR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bonners Ferry, Idaho
    Posts
    16,616
    Style
    Kodokan Judo/BJJ
    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by resonatemoore View Post
    There are a lot of fundamental footwork, balance, and grappling skills in karate, muay thai, and jiu jitsu that allowed him to move in a way (very fluid and unstationary) to kep the opponent from getting a hold of him. He moves laterally so well, that he is never in front of you.
    So his training in other martial arts plus his own exceptional natural Talent are quite important in his ability to avoid being taken down under the MMA rule set.
    Falling for Judo since 1980

    "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

    "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

    "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

  6. #46

    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    San Jose
    Posts
    17
    Style
    MMA
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
    Frankly MMA is still evolving. Don Fry and Randy Couture used to shoot double legs from a mile away. No way you could do that today. Royce Gracie was able to win on pure BJJ, Demian Maia tried that and failed(granted on the title fight). Growth and evolution is starting to slow down, but honestly, it is still happening.

    The only way to tell whether something is effective in MMA is whether it will work in MMA. Muay Tai or Boxing aren't good arenas to figure that out. If you want to know if it is "street" effective, well, if it has ever worked in MMA, the answer is a definite yes, provided you are fighting an untrained opponent.
    If a kick knocks out a muay thai fighter, or a punch technique knocks out a boxer, especially high-level fighters, it will likely work in MMA. If a technique works in MMA, it doesn't necessarily work in muay thai or boxing. Techniques work in MMA for all kinds of reasons, not always because the technique is clean or efficient. People get away with "sloppy" technique for all sorts of reasons, because of timing, takedown threats, fatigue, injuries, concussions, slippery floors, or the opponent was a straight up poor matchup.

    That being said, if a technique works against a top-level muay thai fighter in MMA, then it's probably a really great technique to use. If you can defend a takedown from a top level wrestler in MMA, your technique is solid. But if top level muay thai fighters don't ever use it in muay thai, it's either against the rules, or it's not that effective.

  7. #47

    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    San Jose
    Posts
    17
    Style
    MMA
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BJMills View Post
    This is semi tangential but I recall standing in a bookstore years ago- back when brick and mortar bookstores were still a thing- flipping through a Krav Maga manual.

    The curriculum it outlined was basic boxing. Basic thai style elbows and knees. And kind of karate-ish kicks. Plus a couple basic judo throws and wrestling takedowns and some standard submissions like arm bar from guard and rear naked choke.

    i had only heard of krav at the time and remember thinking that it seemed like a really solid collection of fundamentals.... Kind of what might fit the description you're asking about.

    imagine my my chagrin when a year or two later I saw a krav demo and it was all gun disarms and aikido with karate kicks.

    if I could remember the name of the book I'd find it again, just to see f I was drunk when I flipped through it, or somewhere at some point there was something practical under the krav banner.
    You can go to a krav maga to learn submissions, but the krav maga instructor isn't going to teach you a choke like a jiu jitsu instructor. Have you ever seen a krav maga specialist in the corner of a championship match?

    All the fighters at the AKA have always learned their chokes from jiu jitsu instructors, takedowns from wrestlers, and striking from boxing and muay thai trainers. Krav maga has a good balance and is right on track when it comes to studying the right disciplines (from your description), but it's better to learn from a specialist in my opinion.

  8. #48

    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    San Jose
    Posts
    17
    Style
    MMA
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BJMills View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of a general practical technique guide. And I think it could be fairly useful. It's just a difficult subject because there are so many variables.

    Kind of on topic, one thing I like about the judo and BJJ guys I train with, they tend to look at things through the lens of high percentage/low percentage instead of effective/ineffective...

    With the caveat that garbage is dismissed as garbage.

    So, to take the most generic example, it's not that wrist locks are ineffective, but against resisting opponents they tend to be low percentage.

    They have worked under BJJ rules, so you can't dismiss them completely...

    But as far as time spent working on something they're probably at the very bottom of my list.
    Exactly. Too many variables in MMA, but when you strip the techniques down to their sport of origin, you are able to see why the techniques work well in those sports. Example, in boxing, there are less variables, so you get to see how one punching style works in relation to another punching style. Without other factors like takedowns and kicks, you'll see one style of punching prevail over the other style, time and time again.

    The combination of rules and styles makes some moves work better than others. Example, an uppercut works better in MMA because fighters bring their heads down when there is a takedown fake, and you can follow up with an uppercut more easily. Some moves work better in MMA, some moves work worse, but the reason that those moves work in the first place can be observed more easily with isolated rule sets.

    When you can only punch, you get to see what kind of punches work best.

    Thanks for the insight.

  9. #49

    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    San Jose
    Posts
    17
    Style
    MMA
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ermghoti View Post
    That opens the door for the "too deadly to spar" excuse. There are no ineffective techniques in my crappy martial art, but all the good ones are banned from competition.
    Are the moves banned from competition because that's how the sport works, example no kicks in boxing, or are the moves banned from competition because they often leave the opponent seriously injured, example no punching in the back of the head in boxing, no headbutts, no groin strikes.

    What techniques are banned in MMA competition that put particular martial arts techniques in question? I'm trying to help people find out what disciplines and techniques work best in MMA, not street fights or combat situations.

  10. #50
    Michael Tzadok's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Jerusalem
    Posts
    1,280
    Style
    Pramek/Sambo/BJJ
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by resonatemoore View Post
    If you can defend a takedown from a top level wrestler in MMA, your technique is solid. But if top level muay thai fighters don't ever use it in muay thai, it's either against the rules, or it's not that effective.
    You clearly don't understand how the addition of striking changes the grappling game in MMA. Inside ties, hands down the most effective set up in wrestling for attack, completely out when strikes are involved. I could go on, or you could look up some of Mark Schultz's commentary on the subject. Olympic gold medalist wrestler, turned MMA fighter, turned Pedro Sauer black belt may have some insights into the matter.
    Don't rely on theory if your life is at stake.

Page 5 of 7 First 1234567 Last

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Log in

Log in