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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    He was a Kodokan yudansha.
    I actually did know that, but the effort of some people to separate BJJ from it's judo roots never ceases to amaze me.

    I remember reading a piece on BJJ Eastern Europe claiming that Helio Gracie himself claims to have been taught jujitsu, and specifically NOT judo, by Maeda.

    I don't know what Helio Gracie actually said. I don't know **** about traditional Japanese jujitsu, and I really don't know anything about judo except how to **** up whatever technique I happen to be trying to learn on any given day.

    I do know that we have several guys in the club who cross train BJJ, and there are a **** ton of BJJ techniques that have specifically named entries in the Kodokan syllabus.

  2. #22
    Raycetpfl's Avatar
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    I have always thought of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu as Judo that didn't change from primarily self defense.

  3. #23
    BKR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raycetpfl View Post
    I have always thought of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu as Judo that didn't change from primarily self defense.
    I haven't seen any evidence really that they Gracie's at that early stage were good enough it Judo two be teaching it.

    Was made of teaching him primarily self-defense who really knows...

    Anyway I don't think the emphasis in Judo even way back then was on self-defense maybe that's what the Gracie's wanted to learn so neither was teaching them stuff like that.

    I mean I bet to this day if you say Judo to somebody they think master of self-defense not Olympic champion.
    Falling for Judo since 1980

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  4. #24
    Raycetpfl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post

    Clearly, homeless dude has done some Kodokan Judo...
    I think the important thing to take away from this is this: Don't do Judo unless you wanna be throwing people and living in a van down by the river...... probably the amazon river.

  5. #25

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    The roots are a bit blurry mainly because the gracies like promoting their family name. They are great at marketing. I read somewhere that helio only studdied judo for a few years before focusing on the newaza side exclusivly. His fight against kimura was essentially a submission only judo/bjj match. In saying this its only really the rules that seperate the arts. Theres too many techniques to master or even be proficient in.

    One thing is for certain, they are both jiu jitsu. At this point theres just an agreed version of the history, the games of both arts have changed so much so that they can be seperated. The self defence side is more of a matter of mentality of how you apply the art . Thats why people like to hang **** on guard pullers.

  6. #26

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    My extremely enlightened opinion is this:
    1) There were a lot of similar but different jujitsu schools;
    2) From these, Kano created a system (judo) that was meant primarily as an educational sport, with a conception of "education" of a modernist 19th century Japanese;
    3) In this conception, perfection of technique was an important thing, and students were supposed to train hard and long to reach a "perfect throw", hence the concept of ippon;
    4) But in reality the natural prosecution of standing grappling is ground grappling, and in competition some judokas started to specialize in ground grappling and just pulled their opponents to the ground, like with fake tomoe nages etc.
    5) This pissed off Kano as it went against his ideal of a perfect throw, and he saw this as a cheap route to success in competition, so he changed the rules in order to limit this tendency;
    6) But the natural tendency of standing grappling is to end up in ground grappling, so, without the rules that keep the players up, people will tend to concentrate more on ground grappling - BJJ is just a natural evolution of judo if you remove some specific rules.

    Also sprach MisterMr

  7. #27
    BKR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raycetpfl View Post
    I think the important thing to take away from this is this: Don't do Judo unless you wanna be throwing people and living in a van down by the river...... probably the amazon river.
    That guy would probably love to have a van...
    Falling for Judo since 1980

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  8. #28
    BKR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMR View Post
    My extremely enlightened opinion is this:
    1) There were a lot of similar but different jujitsu schools;
    2) From these, Kano created a system (judo) that was meant primarily as an educational sport, with a conception of "education" of a modernist 19th century Japanese;
    3) In this conception, perfection of technique was an important thing, and students were supposed to train hard and long to reach a "perfect throw", hence the concept of ippon;
    4) But in reality the natural prosecution of standing grappling is ground grappling, and in competition some judokas started to specialize in ground grappling and just pulled their opponents to the ground, like with fake tomoe nages etc.
    5) This pissed off Kano as it went against his ideal of a perfect throw, and he saw this as a cheap route to success in competition, so he changed the rules in order to limit this tendency;
    6) But the natural tendency of standing grappling is to end up in ground grappling, so, without the rules that keep the players up, people will tend to concentrate more on ground grappling - BJJ is just a natural evolution of judo if you remove some specific rules.

    Also sprach MisterMr
    Kano specifically wrote (no, I'm not going to source it) his thoughts on the advantages (from a physical education point of view) on nage waza versus ne waza. I don't think he was pissed off. He was quite rational about it.

    Kano was not specifically interested in Kodokan Judo becoming a massively competition oriented combat sport. Judo was designed by him to be a system of physical, mental, and moral education.

    However, Japanese being human beings like the rest of us, and not having to rely on martial arts skills to survive on a daily basis, they liked to compete, and Kano ideals rapidly became overwhelmed by the competitive aspects of Judo.

    In fact, the development of the "guard pulling/drag to ground" competition strategy was closely linked to you guessed it, winning in competition.
    Falling for Judo since 1980

    "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

    "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

    "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Kano specifically wrote (no, I'm not going to source it) his thoughts on the advantages (from a physical education point of view) on nage waza versus ne waza. I don't think he was pissed off. He was quite rational about it.
    I had a book that is a compendium of article written by Kano on various journals. Unfortunately I lost it but it's this:
    http://www.lunieditrice.com/FONDAMENTI-DEL-JUDO
    (in italian, I don't know if there is an english edition).

    In one of the articles he explains his decision to limit ne-waza in competition, after in a tournament the team of a less famous school inflicted a big defeat to the Kodokan team, largely by pulling them to the ground and being very trained in ne-waza.
    I think that his decision was a bit contested at the time since he spends some time to explain that he wasn't changing the rules just so that his team could win, and he gave various explanations.
    However Kano's general assumption was that it was possible for a less skilled player to train just for ground fighting and then hiding his lack of skill in nage-waza by just dragging the opponent to the ground, hence my sentence: "This pissed off Kano as it went against his ideal of a perfect throw, and he saw this as a cheap route to success in competition, so he changed the rules in order to limit this tendency"

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMR View Post
    I had a book that is a compendium of article written by Kano on various journals. Unfortunately I lost it but it's this:
    http://www.lunieditrice.com/FONDAMENTI-DEL-JUDO
    (in italian, I don't know if there is an english edition).

    In one of the articles he explains his decision to limit ne-waza in competition, after in a tournament the team of a less famous school inflicted a big defeat to the Kodokan team, largely by pulling them to the ground and being very trained in ne-waza.
    I think that his decision was a bit contested at the time since he spends some time to explain that he wasn't changing the rules just so that his team could win, and he gave various explanations.
    However Kano's general assumption was that it was possible for a less skilled player to train just for ground fighting and then hiding his lack of skill in nage-waza by just dragging the opponent to the ground, hence my sentence: "This pissed off Kano as it went against his ideal of a perfect throw, and he saw this as a cheap route to success in competition, so he changed the rules in order to limit this tendency"
    There is some conjecture that an advisor to the Emperor suggested that simply sitting down in front of an opponent lacked the proper dignity.

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