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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDA View Post
    I've just seen a couple of videos somebody posted on Facebook.

    I haven't been this shocked by something in Europe for a longtime.

    They are beating the crap out of regular people .

    Spain will not recover from this for atleast a generation whatever happens .
    One would think it would give any Catlans still sitting on the fence a push over.

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  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by submessenger View Post
    This result was quite obvious given the situation, however remember that:

    1) people who didn't want independence probably didn't go to vote, so 90% of 40% of total voters doesn't necessariously show that the majority of Catalunians want independence;
    2) the big problem is whether the ones that are supposed to vote about this are just the Catalunians or all the Spaniards. The idea that any geographical entity can choose independence has obvious problems.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMR View Post
    1) people who didn't want independence probably didn't go to vote, so 90% of 40% of total voters doesn't necessariously show that the majority of Catalunians want independence;
    Your argument assumes that pretty much everyone that wants to remain part of Spain didn't bother to vote. It seems to me that "no," voters would be relatively safe from the violence, and thus have a higher turnout, so the independence vote is likely to be MORE favorable among those that didn't vote.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMR View Post
    This result was quite obvious given the situation, however remember that:

    1) people who didn't want independence probably didn't go to vote, so 90% of 40% of total voters doesn't necessariously show that the majority of Catalunians want independence;
    2) the big problem is whether the ones that are supposed to vote about this are just the Catalunians or all the Spaniards. The idea that any geographical entity can choose independence has obvious problems.
    Voting? There's no need to vote as God-Emperor has spoken.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.55f02ef7d89c
    Last edited by DCS; 10/02/2017 9:55am at .

  6. #66
    DCS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by submessenger View Post
    Your argument assumes that pretty much everyone that wants to remain part of Spain didn't bother to vote. It seems to me that "no," voters would be relatively safe from the violence, and thus have a higher turnout, so the independence vote is likely to be MORE favorable among those that didn't vote.
    As the voting was declared illegal by Spanish courts and government, potential remain voters didn't want to be seen as complicits of said illegal behavior.

  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    Voting? There's no need to vote as God-Empero has spoken.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.55f02ef7d89c
    Oh well, thats it over for them, Trump has spoken. I'm sure that they will listen.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    Voting? There's no need to vote as God-Empero has spoken.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.55f02ef7d89c

    You're Galacian, correct? In relation to MisterMR assertion, above, I'm curious how you would have voted, if it was your option to do so (i.e. as a non-Catalan voting in the independence referendum).

  9. #69
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    Be sure Spanish PM understood the leader of the free world gave him carte blanche.

  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by submessenger View Post
    Your argument assumes that pretty much everyone that wants to remain part of Spain didn't bother to vote. It seems to me that "no," voters would be relatively safe from the violence, and thus have a higher turnout, so the independence vote is likely to be MORE favorable among those that didn't vote.
    Well, I speak from my experience: I live in Lombardy and a local separatist/localist party (the Northern League) did try at least another similar referendum whan I was younger (and we are going to have a pseudo-autonomy referendum in Lombardy and Veneto next month too). Im' against said "independence" and didn't went to vote last time, as it was a "referendum" done just by one party with no legal value so going to vote was a way to legitimize a bunch of moron in my view.

    Next month's referendum is legal (as the head of the regional governments of Lombardy and Veneto, who are from NL, have the right to call for it) but is just consultive and will be used only as a way to legitimize a request for more autonomy from the central government (that is 100% certain to say no), so I really (A) couldn't bother enough to vote (B) don't want to legitimize the morons (C) I disagreee with them anyway, and I will not vote again.

    I assume in the case of the italian referendum they will have 20-30% of voters showing up (more or less the percentage of NL voters in these parts) and that surprisingly they will get a 90% mayority! And then they will go to Rome to ask for "special statute" status and the parliament will say "no special statute is for regions with special needs, not for the two f-ing richest regions in Italy", and they will cry to high heaven for the lack of democracy in "Roma ladrona" [Rome the thief].

    This is different from the case in Catalunia for many reasons, mostly because I don't expect any violence. I think the spanish government acted both as a dick and in a stupid way. Do they expect to keep Catalunia under police repression for the next 50 years? What is their long term plan exactly? And it was obvious that using force could only increase support for the indipendentists.

    Still, I'm suspicious of this idea of "democracy" that erases any procedural limit: for example in the case of Lombardy, the main point is explicitly the fact that Lombardy is a very big net contributor to the italian tax system, because incomes in Lombardy are significantly higer than in the rest of Italy. Obviously if you ask the lombards if they are happy to send money away or if they would like to keep it at home, many will say that they want to keep it at home; however taxation cannot work if the guy who has to pay the taxes can choose wether to pay taxes or not - hence Lombardy cannot choose to be a "special statute" region by itself just because we don't want to pay taxes to Rome, it's something that depends on the parliament, that represents all italians.
    The move of the NL in Italy is a dick move because it has the appearence of democracy, but in reality it's more or less the opposite of democracy as it cuts off all the other italian voters from the process.

    In Catalunia the story might be different, however note the similarity with the Catalunian referendum in 2014:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catala...ferendum,_2014

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    The ballot papers carried two questions: "Do you want Catalonia to become a State?" and "Do you want this State to be independent?" The second question could only be answered by those who had answered Yes to the first one.[7] The Catalan government gave notice on 10 November, the day after voting, that 2,305,290 votes had been cast overall,[8] but it did not provide a percentage figure for the turnout. Estimates for the turnout as published by the news media ranged from 37.0%, as given in The Economist and El País among others,[9][10][11] to 41.6% as per the Catalan government's preliminary data.[12] 80.8% of the cast votes supported the Yes–Yes option, 10.1% the Yes–No, 4.5% the No option, suggesting that the poll may have been boycotted by Catalan voters who oppose independence.[citation needed]

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