Page 5 of 19 First 12345678915 ... Last
  1. #41
    Michael Tzadok's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Jerusalem
    Posts
    1,277
    Style
    Pramek/Sambo/BJJ
    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMR View Post
    Yeah but, already before WW1, the difference in income inside capitalist countries became so big that the government had to step in and redistribute a bit.
    So today we live in a system where the economy by itself pushes towards capital accumulations and big differences in income, with the state that tries to put a limit to this through taxes an other means (like minimum wage law and other pro worker laws).
    This redistribution is one of the central functions of the state today, even though governments are rolling back on this since the 80s, in part because this redistributive role of the state is questioned.
    Pretty sure that it went unchecked straight through to the Great Depression, and was in fact one of the major causes of the Great Depression. At least in the US FDR's New Deal was the scrapping of pure capitalism for the sake of socialsim. Then there was the rise of the Soviet Union and Communism, and people too simple to see the differences between socialism and communism started to get worried. There was this junior senator from Wisconsin thrown in there, and realignment of priorities to defeat Communism in all its forms, so that any social program was looked at askance. Hence the second wave pure capitalism of the Reagan era.

    Just saying we cannot call socialism capitalism with absolute intellectual honesty. I know the idea of socialism still makes a lot of people squeamish due to its close association with communism, but we really ought to move beyond that.

  2. #42

    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    439
    Style
    Judo, Nippon Kempo
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
    Pretty sure that it went unchecked straight through to the Great Depression, and was in fact one of the major causes of the Great Depression. At least in the US FDR's New Deal was the scrapping of pure capitalism for the sake of socialsim. Then there was the rise of the Soviet Union and Communism, and people too simple to see the differences between socialism and communism started to get worried. There was this junior senator from Wisconsin thrown in there, and realignment of priorities to defeat Communism in all its forms, so that any social program was looked at askance. Hence the second wave pure capitalism of the Reagan era.

    Just saying we cannot call socialism capitalism with absolute intellectual honesty. I know the idea of socialism still makes a lot of people squeamish due to its close association with communism, but we really ought to move beyond that.
    This is rather OT, but I would call the Soviet Union a form of socialism went bad, but still socialism, whereas "communism" is supposed to be more a sort of hippie thing, at least in Marx-speak.
    Also, capitalism and socialism are not two opposite poles but more two different steps on the same ladder, we just see them as opposed because we are in-between them, IMHO.

  3. #43
    Michael Tzadok's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Jerusalem
    Posts
    1,277
    Style
    Pramek/Sambo/BJJ
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMR View Post
    This is rather OT, but I would call the Soviet Union a form of socialism went bad, but still socialism, whereas "communism" is supposed to be more a sort of hippie thing, at least in Marx-speak.
    Also, capitalism and socialism are not two opposite poles but more two different steps on the same ladder, we just see them as opposed because we are in-between them, IMHO.
    I really don't see how unrestricted accumulation of capital, and redistribution of capital are at all synonymous. The pretty much seem like different and conflicting ideologies to me.

    The USSR and various other nations most certainly were communist, at least at their start. That is a historic fact. Another historic fact is that it lead to large scale poverty, starvation and social collapse.

  4. #44

    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    439
    Style
    Judo, Nippon Kempo
    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
    I really don't see how unrestricted accumulation of capital, and redistribution of capital are at all synonymous. The pretty much seem like different and conflicting ideologies to me.

    The USSR and various other nations most certainly were communist, at least at their start. That is a historic fact. Another historic fact is that it lead to large scale poverty, starvation and social collapse.
    --Ideological rant starting

    A) Continuous accumulation of capital leads to crisis, a "contradiction" of capitalism. In order to keep the system working, some security valves were introduced in the system, so that in modern capitalism there is a substantial redistribution by the government.
    Of course if the quantity of redistribution continues to increase, at the end we would end up in a "socialist" system, but we are far from there yet. This is what I mean by two steps on a ladder: in the long course of history, socialism represents an evolution of capitalism, not the opposite of it. Bu since we are somewhere in the middle of this transformation, we see them as polar opposites.
    This certainly doesn't mean that unrestricted accumulation of capital and redistribution of capital are synonymous.

    B) Before the soviet revolution, there were various socialist parties in Europe, mostly Marx-inspired, that called themselves socialists. Some were more reformist, other more revolutionary.
    When the soviet revolution happened, the various socialist had to choose if they were pro-revolution or reformists, and this caused a split in the socialist movement.
    The revolutionary wing kept the name "communist", whereas the reformist wing the name "socialist", hence the way you use the terms.
    Note however that in this use of the terms people like Luxembourg, Hilferding and Kautsky count as socialist, and they were certainly marxists.

    In the original use of the terms by Marx, the proletarians first make a revolution and have a "dictatorship of the proletariat", and this is socialism. In socialism, the state controls the means of production for the advantage of the proletarians.
    Later as the dictatorship of the proletariat elides class differences, the property relations become useless, the state withers away, and a fuzzy hippie like new world is born. This is "communism" according to Marx.
    It is evident that the Soviet Union was a sort of "socialism", that is a dictatorship of the proletariat where the government controls the means of production The state certainly didn't wither away.
    The main question is rather if the Soviet Union was a "dictatorship of the proletariat" or just a "dictatorship dictatorship".
    This was in fact the main point of contention between Lenin and Kautsky immediately after the revolution, so it's not really a new debate; Kautsky was a reformist and his reading of Marx was that the term "dictatorship of the proletariat" meant more or less what we now call social democracy (since Marx considered the liberal democracies of his times a dictatorship of the burgoise), excluded that he believed that this social democracy had to expand continuously until it superceded capitalism.
    Lenin believed that dictatorship of the proletariat meant the use of force and that Kautsky was just a traitor (Lenin's position is more understandable when you think that Lenin expected german socialists to sabotage somehow the war Germany was waging against the newborn USSR, whereas Kautsky, who was the leader of the leftiest political party in Germany at the time, basically chickened out).

    If we take the reformist Kautsky meaning of the term, socialism can mean redistribuition, but only with the idea of continuous redistribuition with the plan to somehow surpass the capitalist mode of production at some time in the future.
    Some basic level of redistribution by taxation by itself is not socialism, IMO.

    -- end of ideological rant

    So what about Catalunia?
    Last edited by MisterMR; 9/17/2017 9:44am at .

  5. #45

    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    439
    Style
    Judo, Nippon Kempo
    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    From an american blog:

    Catalonia’s Defiance of Spanish Authority Turns into Rebellion

    https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2017...rebellion.html

  6. #46
    DCS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    6,496
    Style
    Jits
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Spanish police on Wednesday raided several departments at the Catalonian regional government and arrested 12 high-ranking officials during a search for material related to an independence referendum that has been dismissed by Spain's judiciary as unconstitutional.

    Sources from the investigation confirmed to EFE that among those detained were the secretary-general to the vice-presidency of the regional economy ministry, Josep Maria Jové; finance secretary Luís Salvadó; the head of the telecommunications center (CCTI), Josué Sallent Rivas and social affairs official Xavier Puig Farré.

    Source: https://www.efe.com/efe/english/worl...000262-3384497

  7. #47

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Slough
    Posts
    845
    Style
    Karate
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41331152

    Looks like they are stepping it up. I'm pretty neutral on this but I feel that if the Spanish really want to push the Catalan's over the edge then they are going the right way about it. This will only cause resentment and create martyrs.

  8. #48
    DCS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    6,496
    Style
    Jits

  9. #49

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Slough
    Posts
    845
    Style
    Karate
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Here we go......

  10. #50
    Michael Tzadok's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Jerusalem
    Posts
    1,277
    Style
    Pramek/Sambo/BJJ
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Brings this to mind
    Don't rely on theory if your life is at stake.

Page 5 of 19 First 12345678915 ... Last

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Log in

Log in