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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mogurisu View Post
    You are absolutely right on this, it seems I didn't illustrate my point very well but it is the first time I've ever tried to find a Con to MMA. As we both said, MMA trains fighters and it's tried and tested as the most effective fighting system for fighting a single unarmed opponent, in the ring, on the street in the pub or anywhere else. The skills and 'fighting tools' in MMA are a very firm foundation for surviving a violent encounter and from here you can indeed break the rules whenever you like.

    My point is more that real violent encounters often involve more than one opponent, weapons, friend's loved ones you need to protect, legal implications and a whole host of other factors that (quite rightly) do not have any place in MMA training. Under pressure people tend to do what they've been trained to do or freeze so the chances of coming up with creative and effective solutions to these new problems in the moment are slim.

    If you take the same competency level and set of 'Fighting tools' as MMA and apply the strategies and pressure drills of a focussed self defence system like Krav Maga then that same person doesn't need to break their ingrained habits to strike groins and throats in a violent assault situation, they will also train to be more aware of other factors such as the risk of having your head stomped by the other guy's mates if you get tied up on the ground.

    Far from denigrating MMA and it's obvious applications I was trying to demonstrate there is more to the subject of self defence than MMA training covers. The step from effective MMA to effective self defence is more to do with strategy and application than technique but the difference does exist. It's also a small step compared to the massive leap most martial arts need to take from their training regime to effective self defence.

    I hope that makes more sense.
    Groins and throats ? You went there...

    Have you ever been punched in the nose, or picked up and slammed to the ground, a heavy knee placed on your belly, ever been strangled unconscious, or had your joints bent the wrong way until they pop ?

    Throats and groins, jeez...

    And yeah, more to self defense than just the physical side.

    I've got a degree in Obviousology, too, just ask around...
    Falling for Judo since 1980

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  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Groins and throats ? You went there...

    Have you ever been punched in the nose, or picked up and slammed to the ground, a heavy knee placed on your belly, ever been strangled unconscious, or had your joints bent the wrong way until they pop ?

    Throats and groins, jeez...

    And yeah, more to self defense than just the physical side.

    I've got a degree in Obviousology, too, just ask around...
    Yes, Yes, Yes, Sort of (to blacking out but not quite unconscious) and Yes. I've also been smacked in the bollocks and hit in the throat and occasionally poked in the eyes. Apart from the punch in the face, all of the others generally require you to go to ground, or open the possibility of getting dragged down when you slam. Arguably some joint locks might work/ apply leverage without being on the deck but popping joints usually requires your whole body.

    Ground work gets very messy very quickly when you throw in bollock wrenching and eye gouging or the possibility that the ground is made of concrete and strewn with stones, glass and a lot of other things you don't want to roll on. Of course he can't do much if he's unconscious but my opponents' mates will be ready to kick my head off especially if I appear to be winning. This also becomes more problematic when you have a big difference in size and bodyweight (unless of course you're bigger).

    Apologies if the old groin and throat line is cliche but there are good reasons why certain techniques are illegal in MMA. Not that a decent MMA fighter isn't effective, but a decent MMA fighter who can employ a more appropriate strategy and is also prepared to cheat is likely to be more effective. But as one of the earlier posters said this is all a fairly simple change in application that could be trained a few times a year in intensive sessions with good scenario simulations to build on a solid MMA foundation. I'd like to find an MMA gym that applies this approach.

  3. #13
    Kovacs's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mogurisu View Post
    You are absolutely right on this, it seems I didn't illustrate my point very well but it is the first time I've ever tried to find a Con to MMA. As we both said, MMA trains fighters and it's tried and tested as the most effective fighting system for fighting a single unarmed opponent, in the ring, on the street in the pub or anywhere else. The skills and 'fighting tools' in MMA are a very firm foundation for surviving a violent encounter and from here you can indeed break the rules whenever you like.

    My point is more that real violent encounters often involve more than one opponent, weapons, friend's loved ones you need to protect, legal implications and a whole host of other factors that (quite rightly) do not have any place in MMA training. Under pressure people tend to do what they've been trained to do or freeze so the chances of coming up with creative and effective solutions to these new problems in the moment are slim.

    If you take the same competency level and set of 'Fighting tools' as MMA and apply the strategies and pressure drills of a focussed self defence system like Krav Maga then that same person doesn't need to break their ingrained habits to strike groins and throats in a violent assault situation, they will also train to be more aware of other factors such as the risk of having your head stomped by the other guy's mates if you get tied up on the ground.

    Far from denigrating MMA and it's obvious applications I was trying to demonstrate there is more to the subject of self defence than MMA training covers. The step from effective MMA to effective self defence is more to do with strategy and application than technique but the difference does exist. It's also a small step compared to the massive leap most martial arts need to take from their training regime to effective self defence.

    I hope that makes more sense.
    I see you're bringing RBSD in the form of Krav into it now and I'd still stick with MMA over any form of RBSD for effectiveness in reality. MMA will prepare you for fighting one inidividual, if you can't do that you cant fight multiple attackers, ****/bust it won't happen, no matter how many scenarios you try and run in a RBSD setting.

    It's the same for protecting others, weapons, not getting stomped etc. This all comes down to adrenaline control and being able to control your immediate environment with force. Again, the adrenaline dump and sudden need for control you'll get from an MMA fight versus a faked scenario in RBSD just doesn't compare.

    Just look at the myriad of street fighting videos on YouTube, more often than not MMA trained guys do very well against situations which according to sport vs street arguments should go against them.
    Ne Obliviscaris

  4. #14
    Kovacs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mogurisu View Post
    Apologies if the old groin and throat line is cliche but there are good reasons why certain techniques are illegal in MMA. Not that a decent MMA fighter isn't effective, but a decent MMA fighter who can employ a more appropriate strategy and is also prepared to cheat is likely to be more effective. But as one of the earlier posters said this is all a fairly simple change in application that could be trained a few times a year in intensive sessions with good scenario simulations to build on a solid MMA foundation. I'd like to find an MMA gym that applies this approach.
    You're walking down the 'sport vs street' road, have a read through the site a bit more and you might get a feel for it.

    You don't need to train to cheat or fight dirty, train to win and that option is always there for a competent individual. Paying someone to train you in dirty tactics is just wasting money.
    Ne Obliviscaris

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mogurisu View Post
    Yes, Yes, Yes, Sort of (to blacking out but not quite unconscious) and Yes. I've also been smacked in the bollocks and hit in the throat and occasionally poked in the eyes. Apart from the punch in the face, all of the others generally require you to go to ground, or open the possibility of getting dragged down when you slam. Arguably some joint locks might work/ apply leverage without being on the deck but popping joints usually requires your whole body.

    Ground work gets very messy very quickly when you throw in bollock wrenching and eye gouging or the possibility that the ground is made of concrete and strewn with stones, glass and a lot of other things you don't want to roll on. Of course he can't do much if he's unconscious but my opponents' mates will be ready to kick my head off especially if I appear to be winning. This also becomes more problematic when you have a big difference in size and bodyweight (unless of course you're bigger).

    Apologies if the old groin and throat line is cliche but there are good reasons why certain techniques are illegal in MMA. Not that a decent MMA fighter isn't effective, but a decent MMA fighter who can employ a more appropriate strategy and is also prepared to cheat is likely to be more effective. But as one of the earlier posters said this is all a fairly simple change in application that could be trained a few times a year in intensive sessions with good scenario simulations to build on a solid MMA foundation. I'd like to find an MMA gym that applies this approach.
    You've got to be kidding me, the old "ground is strewn with AIDS infected needles, is hard, etc" trope ?

    You know, MMA has punching, kicking, throwing, joint locks, and ground grappling ?

    The great thing about being skilled in all of those is that you tend to be able to decide where the fight ends up, and if for some reason you end up in a bad position, (slip on banana peel or a used condom?), you will know how/be able to get out of it.

    As far as multiple attackers, that's dicey no matter what, but being well-trained and capable of all those things MMA trains is nothing but a plus when combined with the type of training Michael T. described.

    That plus without alive training with fully resisting training partners and opponents (in competition), you won't know how to handle the stress/adrenaline or physical contact.
    Falling for Judo since 1980

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  6. #16
    BKR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kovacs View Post
    You're walking down the 'sport vs street' road, have a read through the site a bit more and you might get a feel for it.

    You don't need to train to cheat or fight dirty, train to win and that option is always there for a competent individual. Paying someone to train you in dirty tactics is just wasting money.
    It's harder than most people think to seriously damage a guy with strikes while grappling. I found that out recently when we started doing the old Bill Murphy "keep the guy on bottom honest by slapping him" drills.

    Big eye opener for me, as not all control positions lend themselves to the leverage necessary to strike effectively. That plus covering when you are on bottom while trying to escape...
    Falling for Judo since 1980

    "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

    "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

    "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    You've got to be kidding me, the old "ground is strewn with AIDS infected needles, is hard, etc" trope ?

    You know, MMA has punching, kicking, throwing, joint locks, and ground grappling ?

    The great thing about being skilled in all of those is that you tend to be able to decide where the fight ends up, and if for some reason you end up in a bad position, (slip on banana peel or a used condom?), you will know how/be able to get out of it.

    As far as multiple attackers, that's dicey no matter what, but being well-trained and capable of all those things MMA trains is nothing but a plus when combined with the type of training Michael T. described.

    That plus without alive training with fully resisting training partners and opponents (in competition), you won't know how to handle the stress/adrenaline or physical contact.
    This devil's advocate thing really sucks. Poor choice for my first day on the forum. Couldn't agree more on the live training (or most of your other points).

    I'm curious why advocating groin strikes in self defence gets such a negative reply. As an application of good technique and training not as an alternative to it. Learning from my earlier mistakes I'm going to try some evidence on this one. Can a groin strike stop a highly trained and motivated resisting opponent effectively? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=62l3O4xrkSc
    It's a compilation of ring fighting low blows.

    You guys have been obviously been around the block on this forum so apologies again if this is a regularly trotted out cliche.

  8. #18
    BackFistMonkey's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mogurisu View Post
    This devil's advocate thing really sucks. Poor choice for my first day on the forum. Couldn't agree more on the live training (or most of your other points).

    I'm curious why advocating groin strikes in self defence gets such a negative reply. As an application of good technique and training not as an alternative to it. Learning from my earlier mistakes I'm going to try some evidence on this one. Can a groin strike stop a highly trained and motivated resisting opponent effectively? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=62l3O4xrkSc
    It's a compilation of ring fighting low blows.

    You guys have been obviously been around the block on this forum so apologies again if this is a regularly trotted out cliche.
    A kick or strike to the nuts of an adrenalin dumped homosapien can be effective. So can breaking their limbs with a steel pipe or a couple bullets. Humans can and have walked right through broken limbs, multiple gunshots, car and plane crashes, dismemberment, etc to continue to fight.

    The testicals are not an Off Switch. If you want an off switch you have to destroy the thinky thinky organ.
    Quote Originally Posted by ghost55 View Post
    Violence is pretty uncommon in clubs in this area, and the dude didn't seem particularly hostile up until the moment he slapped me.
    I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WFMurphyPhD View Post
    Slamming the man in the bottom position from time to time keeps everybody on their toes and discourages butt scooting stupidity.

  9. #19
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    It's harder than most people think to seriously damage a guy with strikes while grappling. I found that out recently when we started doing the old Bill Murphy "keep the guy on bottom honest by slapping him" drills.

    Big eye opener for me, as not all control positions lend themselves to the leverage necessary to strike effectively. That plus covering when you are on bottom while trying to escape...
    That's why we mount ;-) and rain thunder .

  10. #20
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mogurisu View Post
    Can a groin strike stop a highly trained and motivated resisting opponent effectively?
    Can an untrained person deliver a groin strike with the accuracy, power, timing... required for stopping a highly trained and motivated resisting opponent?

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