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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
    Did you seriously just compare this guy to an Olympic silver medalist? I mean dude there is average, there is good, there is great, and then there is standing on the podium at the Olympic Games with a medal around your neck.

    Oh and um, I guess someone should tell Urijah Faber that he doesn't really know who to pummel either

    Honestly I've seen pummeling taught a bunch of different ways, and some do include chest bumping pretty hard, especially with Sambo and Judo guys, and some Greco-Roman guys I've trained with.


    I see a user name that you claim is him. But I don't see that it is him. Can you prove that this user is the man in question?

    Screen shots of any of this?
    Uriah is pummeling hard there but he is using correct technique and footwork. Pummeling can be done with force, but the technique has to be there and Uriah is using decent technique. Laren has his guys just standing there slamming which is pointless to wrestling. You dont have to be an olympian to know this, I just used that video as a good example. Its usually the very first thing taught in wrestling, it doesnt get much more fundamental than pummeling, and everything else builds on that.

    If you cant pummel properly you cant wrestle effectively, its that simple.

    I cant prove that username is him, its just what is said by others in the thread.

    I did not screenshot our exchange on his youtube comment section.

  2. #22

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    I concede that no further investigation is warranted. Its not really that big of a deal or offense.

    Mods, thank you for the space, and to those who took the time to respond, thank you as well for your contribution.

    There is no more to pursue here, there appears to be no fraud or malice.

    For all intents and purposes, the guy is a wrestling coach and practicioner by commonly accepted standards.

    Mods, please move, delete or leave up as you see fit.

  3. #23
    Michael Tzadok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farmboygrappler View Post
    The pummeling video shows guys slamming into each other with each underhook like it was a shoulder strike, whereas in wrestling pummeling is smooth process of exchanging underhooks to secure a grasp. If you watch his video, theres no grasp or hook, theyre literally just slamming their shoulders and chests into each other. Its an abomination of a drill and nothing to do with pummeling.

    Heres an example of proper pummeling:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fz-duVr-vY
    Quote Originally Posted by Farmboygrappler View Post
    Uriah is pummeling hard there but he is using correct technique and footwork. Pummeling can be done with force, but the technique has to be there and Uriah is using decent technique. Laren has his guys just standing there slamming which is pointless to wrestling. You dont have to be an olympian to know this, I just used that video as a good example. Its usually the very first thing taught in wrestling, it doesnt get much more fundamental than pummeling, and everything else builds on that.

    If you cant pummel properly you cant wrestle effectively, its that simple.

    I cant prove that username is him, its just what is said by others in the thread.

    I did not screenshot our exchange on his youtube comment section.
    Ok. I was giving you a chance, but here it comes.
    First Barry Davis isn't using footwork in his basic warm up drill. And she sure as **** isn't using Faber's footwork when he actually gets down to more aggressive pummeling. More on this in a minute.

    Second have you ever coached? More importantly have you ever coached uncoordinated adult beginners? I will bet you dollars to donuts that the shirtless guy that seems to be getting some sort of private lesson from Laren there is an uncoordinated adult beginner. I reference this because you often have to extremely dumb down your instruction for uncoordinated adult beginners otherwise bad things happen. I had a student who in attempting to do a front shoulder roll from a kneeling position smashed their own face into their upward knee so hard that they broke their own nose. Never underestimate just how much you may have to dumb down instruction. There is no real context for the pummeling video other than Laren seems to be giving a private lesson to an adult beginner.

    Now as to pummeling. Truth be told that according to USA Wrestling instructional
    http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Wrestling...w-CpeQbtxOEizA
    None of the above mentioned videos actually teach good pummeling, and Faber's is pretty much crap.

    Also I would like to point out that USA Wrestling doesn't consider pummeling a basic wrestling skill, they view it as a fairly advanced skill that is mostly specialized to Greco-Roman wrestling. I know that the current core curriculum of USA Wrestling is a modernization that came about in the late 90's and early 2000's, but it is the what guys like Dan Gable consider to be the ideal skill progression for developing wrestlers.

    Saying if you can't pummel you can't wrestle is more than a little hyperbolic. Pummeling is a more advanced and specialized skill. If you don't agree with that, than I suggest you take it up with the educational department of the US National team. Oh right almost forgot my verification link: http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Wrestling...ore-Curriculum. Though I would like to point out that pummeling in folkstyle and freestyle is basically wasted training time, as you should never be upright enough to go chest to chest and get double under hooks. If you are, to quote Kurt Osiander, "You f%$#*d up a long time ago." I mean why bother with getting double under hooks when you can leg trip, ippon seo nagi, Uchi Gari, Uchi Matta the guy once he gets a single underhook? Or if you were sleeping through him getting the single, osoto gari him when he pulls you to him to open space to get the other hook? Aside from the ippon seo nage, all of those throws are illegal in Greco-Roman which makes going for double under hooks a much safer practice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Farmboygrappler View Post
    If you can't beat them, join them. Instead of questioning the competence of others, I'm opening a philosophical wrestling school to capitalize on my 140 years of experience.
    You have gone after a guy who quit coaching four years ago, because you didn't like what you saw in a single video. At least that is your claim. I'm sorry but that isn't really passing the sniff test at this point. Mostly because of your complete inability to either provide any solid proof of bullshido or let the matter go. Your tenacity over this, when all relevant details are considered, definitely seems to be more than you got insulted by a single response to a comment by someone on the interwebz.

  4. #24
    Michael Tzadok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Totally same in judo with adult beginners regarding simplifying stuff, mostly for safety reasons.

    Or little kids or....
    I personally find teaching kids easier than extremely uncoordinated adults. Primary reason being that kids will ask a million questions and then try to do whatever as right a possible. Uncoordinated adults will insist a million times that they really do understand you, and do it wrong a million times before they finally let you correct them, all the while insisting that the technique is wrong or doesn't work.

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
    Ok. I was giving you a chance, but here it comes.
    First Barry Davis isn't using footwork in his basic warm up drill. And she sure as **** isn't using Faber's footwork when he actually gets down to more aggressive pummeling. More on this in a minute.

    Second have you ever coached? More importantly have you ever coached uncoordinated adult beginners? I will bet you dollars to donuts that the shirtless guy that seems to be getting some sort of private lesson from Laren there is an uncoordinated adult beginner. I reference this because you often have to extremely dumb down your instruction for uncoordinated adult beginners otherwise bad things happen. I had a student who in attempting to do a front shoulder roll from a kneeling position smashed their own face into their upward knee so hard that they broke their own nose. Never underestimate just how much you may have to dumb down instruction. There is no real context for the pummeling video other than Laren seems to be giving a private lesson to an adult beginner.

    Now as to pummeling. Truth be told that according to USA Wrestling instructional
    http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Wrestling...w-CpeQbtxOEizA
    None of the above mentioned videos actually teach good pummeling, and Faber's is pretty much crap.

    Also I would like to point out that USA Wrestling doesn't consider pummeling a basic wrestling skill, they view it as a fairly advanced skill that is mostly specialized to Greco-Roman wrestling. I know that the current core curriculum of USA Wrestling is a modernization that came about in the late 90's and early 2000's, but it is the what guys like Dan Gable consider to be the ideal skill progression for developing wrestlers.

    Saying if you can't pummel you can't wrestle is more than a little hyperbolic. Pummeling is a more advanced and specialized skill. If you don't agree with that, than I suggest you take it up with the educational department of the US National team. Oh right almost forgot my verification link: http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Wrestling...ore-Curriculum. Though I would like to point out that pummeling in folkstyle and freestyle is basically wasted training time, as you should never be upright enough to go chest to chest and get double under hooks. If you are, to quote Kurt Osiander, "You f%$#*d up a long time ago." I mean why bother with getting double under hooks when you can leg trip, ippon seo nagi, Uchi Gari, Uchi Matta the guy once he gets a single underhook? Or if you were sleeping through him getting the single, osoto gari him when he pulls you to him to open space to get the other hook? Aside from the ippon seo nage, all of those throws are illegal in Greco-Roman which makes going for double under hooks a much safer practice.


    You have gone after a guy who quit coaching four years ago, because you didn't like what you saw in a single video. At least that is your claim. I'm sorry but that isn't really passing the sniff test at this point. Mostly because of your complete inability to either provide any solid proof of bullshido or let the matter go. Your tenacity over this, when all relevant details are considered, definitely seems to be more than you got insulted by a single response to a comment by someone on the interwebz.
    With all due respect, you must have missed my posts where I did let it go. (posts 22 and 24 in this thread) I understand that there is no malice or fraud going on, no bullshido, no cause for further investigation. I appreciate your feedback, you more than anyone cleared up the standards and thresholds of actual bullshido, and I realize that there is no case here.

  6. #26
    Michael Tzadok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farmboygrappler View Post
    If you can't beat them, join them. Instead of questioning the competence of others, I'm opening a philosophical wrestling school to capitalize on my 140 years of experience.
    Quote Originally Posted by Farmboygrappler View Post
    With all due respect, you must have missed my posts where I did let it go. (posts 22 and 24 in this thread) I understand that there is no malice or fraud going on, no bullshido, no cause for further investigation. I appreciate your feedback, you more than anyone cleared up the standards and thresholds of actual bullshido, and I realize that there is no case here.
    The above quoted zinger seems to give lie to your words of letting it go.

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
    The above quoted zinger seems to give lie to your words of letting it go.
    I see how you might perceive it that way, but I was just trying to make a humorous comment while explaining that I was wrong in my assumptions.

    I wanted to be a Bullshidoka, I wanted to uncover something and bring it to the table as a contributing member. Believe me, Ive let go to the point I wouldnt even want to debate the importance of pummeling to wrestling as it doesnt matter - even if I proved that point, it still wouldnt indicate bullshido. I wont even joke about it anymore.

    To answer your question, Ive never coached. I know wrestling fairly well, but I learned it from state and national champs and olympians, and would never presume to consider myself on a high enough level to teach like they did.

    Ive posted a failed thread. I admit it. I feel silly for wearing my musty old singlet and earguards this whole time. Its over Johnny. Its over.

  8. #28

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    I know Laren personally and this thread is extremely ignorant and full of falsehood. I dont know where to start but I am here to set the record straight. Where to begin? theres so much nonsense already. I suppose I shall start by telling you what I do know. Laren has been a world class grappler for a long time. He was personally taught by the late great Carl Gotch, and furthermore is one of only two Americans who was able to survive Gotch's extremely rigorous conditioning program. He is also a heavyweight at 230 lbs and 6'4" and is worked with Check Kongo and many other pro fighters and grapplers so he is very respected in those circles. He is extremely strong and highly conditioned. He swings massive wooden clubs overhead like theyre nothing. That right there clears everything up in my opinion, but theres so much more to say. You have the techical knowledge of Carl Gotch, combined with extreme endurance and conditioning. There was no ducking from Rob Kahn, that is simply a falsehood. I cant speak for Laren but in my opinion he would smash Kahn who is a smaller grappler and who got his training from Royce Gracie who is nowhere near Gotch's level. And like somebody said Laren is much more than just a grappling great. Hes a yogi, philosopher, poet, author and actor and this exposure and success brings out the haters in droves and Im refering to the thread starter specificaly here. Ive spoken my peace, namaste and good will to all.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by DisregardBiases View Post
    I know Laren personally and this thread is extremely ignorant and full of falsehood. I dont know where to start but I am here to set the record straight. Where to begin? theres so much nonsense already. I suppose I shall start by telling you what I do know. Laren has been a world class grappler for a long time. He was personally taught by the late great Carl Gotch, and furthermore is one of only two Americans who was able to survive Gotch's extremely rigorous conditioning program. He is also a heavyweight at 230 lbs and 6'4" and is worked with Check Kongo and many other pro fighters and grapplers so he is very respected in those circles. He is extremely strong and highly conditioned. He swings massive wooden clubs overhead like theyre nothing. That right there clears everything up in my opinion, but theres so much more to say. You have the techical knowledge of Carl Gotch, combined with extreme endurance and conditioning. There was no ducking from Rob Kahn, that is simply a falsehood. I cant speak for Laren but in my opinion he would smash Kahn who is a smaller grappler and who got his training from Royce Gracie who is nowhere near Gotch's level. And like somebody said Laren is much more than just a grappling great. Hes a yogi, philosopher, poet, author and actor and this exposure and success brings out the haters in droves and Im refering to the thread starter specificaly here. Ive spoken my peace, namaste and good will to all.
    And who are you?

    I train Indian clubs and use ones that a lot of people couldn't swing without cracking their skulls open, but that doesn't mean I'm a good grappler (I'm not).
    Last edited by Permalost; 9/17/2017 3:42pm at .

  10. #30
    Raycetpfl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DisregardBiases View Post
    I know Laren personally and this thread is extremely ignorant and full of falsehood. I dont know where to start but I am here to set the record straight. Where to begin? theres so much nonsense already. I suppose I shall start by telling you what I do know. Laren has been a world class grappler for a long time. He was personally taught by the late great Carl Gotch, and furthermore is one of only two Americans who was able to survive Gotch's extremely rigorous conditioning program. He is also a heavyweight at 230 lbs and 6'4" and is worked with Check Kongo and many other pro fighters and grapplers so he is very respected in those circles. He is extremely strong and highly conditioned. He swings massive wooden clubs overhead like theyre nothing. That right there clears everything up in my opinion, but theres so much more to say. You have the techical knowledge of Carl Gotch, combined with extreme endurance and conditioning. There was no ducking from Rob Kahn, that is simply a falsehood. I cant speak for Laren but in my opinion he would smash Kahn who is a smaller grappler and who got his training from Royce Gracie who is nowhere near Gotch's level. And like somebody said Laren is much more than just a grappling great. Hes a yogi, philosopher, poet, author and actor and this exposure and success brings out the haters in droves and Im refering to the thread starter specificaly here. Ive spoken my peace, namaste and good will to all.
    Lol fucking clowns. Rob Kahn would destroy him in my opinion but I don't know Rob that we'll so I don't want to speak for him. Robs black belts would destroy him as well.

    I come from a Royce and Relson lineage myself. I would destroy that Lauren chick without getting sweaty I would bet.

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