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    American Politics in a Nutshell. For IIF...

    Falling for Judo since 1980

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Rather funny (though I disagree with the "they are all the same" and "politicians all steal the hard earned money of others" politics).

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    PDA's Avatar
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    American politics in a nutshell:

    King without a crown

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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMR View Post
    Rather funny (though I disagree with the "they are all the same" and "politicians all steal the hard earned money of others" politics).
    Well, you can start a thread and explain Italian national politics.
    Falling for Judo since 1980

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    "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

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    BKR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDA View Post
    American politics in a nutshell:

    Interesting choice of weapon...
    Falling for Judo since 1980

    "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

    "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

    "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Well, you can start a thread and explain Italian national politics.
    We had a guy somehow similar to Trump, but bald. He was a good friend of Putin and once during an interview in Russia he lamented that Italy is full of communists. The rest is details.

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    More to the point, point sparring maybe sucks, doing only katas sucks, and no touch KOs also suck, but if you can't distinguish between the three levels of suckishness this is a problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMR View Post
    We had a guy somehow similar to Trump, but bald. He was a good friend of Putin and once during an interview in Russia he lamented that Italy is full of communists. The rest is details.
    He wasnt wrong, socialism had a big following pre/during ww1. Post ww2 communist movement in italy was on the rise. Italy has had more than 35 governments since ww2. The most simplistic way to describe this is, italians have horrible organisational skills (my friends and family are italian, i see this first hand).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kravbizarre View Post
    He wasnt wrong, socialism had a big following pre/during ww1. Post ww2 communist movement in italy was on the rise. Italy has had more than 35 governments since ww2. The most simplistic way to describe this is, italians have horrible organisational skills (my friends and family are italian, i see this first hand).
    Re 35 governments since ww2:
    It is a feature, not a bug. The italian constitution was written just after the end of fascism, and perhaps many of the writers feared a communist dictatorship (though the communist party itself participated in writing the constitution).
    They tought that a dictatorship depends on an excess of power of the executive (government proper) against the legislative (parliament/senate/congress/whatever) and the judiciary.
    Therefore they made a system that makes it very easy for the opposition to cause the fall of a government.
    The italian government is not elected by italian citiziens, but by the parliament, that was elected by citiziens in a strictly proportional way (now it's a mix of first-past-the-post and proportional), so when the parliament changes its collective mind the goverment "falls" and is replaced by a new one, without new elections.
    New elections are called only when the parliament can't make up its mind on a new government, so that the parliament is disbanded and new elections are called.

    Re "he wasn't wrong": I know that there are some communists in Italy, in facts I'm one. However when Berlusconi made that comment it was totally inaccurate and out of proportion.
    I'll totally use this occasion to snatch the thread and speak of italian politics (thake this BKR!).
    After WW2 there was a strong communist party in Italy, in part because the bulk of the antifascist resistance was made by communists so they could present themselves as freedom fighters (it seems that some partisans actually contemplated the idea of creating a "soviet Italy" after the fall of fascism, but Stalin had already agreed at Yalta that Italy had to be part of the "west", so he said no). So in the end they made a democratic communist party (the PCI) that slowly grew up to something like 20% of popular vote in the seventies.
    The main italian political party was the christian democrats (DC) that got above the 35% of the popular vote). The DC ruled Italy continuously from 1945 to 1992, with alliances with other minor parties. The most important of these party was the italian socialist party (PSI, a non-communist leftish party).
    In this period the PCI was never part of the government, and was allways at the opposition. In fact the main selling point of the DC was that it kept the commies out of power.
    After the fall of the USSR, the PCI had a change of mind and choose to recuse the hammer and sickle symbol (seen as a symbol of tyranny) and change the name, so the party split with most of the party becoming the PDS (leftish democratic party), with a minority of the party becoming "rifondazione comunista" and keeping the hammer and sickle.
    Contemporaneously, perhaps because the "communist threat" had faded, more or less all the other italian parties were swallowed up by a very large corruption scandal known as Tangentopoli [Bribesgate].
    At the national elections of 1994, basically no italian political party other than the PDS (former PCI) was still standing, so many commentators expected the ex-communists to get the government for the first time after WW2.
    In this situation Silvio Berlusconi, a media mogul who owned one half of italian main TV channels (thanks to his friends in the now defunct socialist party, the other half being state-owned channels) choose to run for premiership, on a platform of "OMG the commies", and won.
    I will stress that the "OMG the commies" was total bull already since decades, as the PCI had been a democratic party since the 50s, however it still worked.
    Berlusconi himself was caught into many scandals, and came to see the judiciary as a whole as an enemy, and had a sort of conspiracy theory against "communist judges" that were plotting agains him (I can't tell how much he was bulshitting and how much he really believed this), in the meanwhile he did stuff like having his own defence lawyer crafting new laws to get out of his own processes (through the statute of limitations), so that many judges came to see Berlusconi as a danger for the judiciary.
    At some point the head of italian judges ended his own yearly discourse with the word "resistere, resister, resistere!" with a clear hint about antifascist resistance.
    In this situation, during a trip to Russia, he told to the astonished journalists that Russia was a great democratic country, not like Italy that was under the power of communist judges (note: he was in power at the time).
    Berlusconi ruled Italy intermittently with his adversary being initially the PDS, that later merged with other parties and became "DS", until the crisis of 2008, when he resigned because of the combined effect of a sex scandal (with a prostitute that was just some months younger than 18, and hence a minor) and pressures from the EU (Berlusconi was a big deficit guy). The DS are currently in power together with some remnants of Berlusconi's party, while a new party, the "Movimento 5 stelle" ("five stars movement"), that says that politicians of the left and the right are all the same and are all corrupt, is their principal opponent.
    Berlusconi is likely to run again in the next political elections.

    I see many similarities between Berlusconi and Trump, both in terms of self presentation and in terms of substance. I think that they came to power because the main right lining party (Republicans in the USA, the DC in Italy) lost all their legitimacy, but their voters are not going to vote for a leftish party, so they end up voting a corrupt clown that is good at self marketing, and they close their eyes not to see that their politician is a corrupt clown.
    So this is the reason I don't like the "politicians are all the same" line, because I think it is a form of self delusion and actually enables more egregious and corrupt behaviour by politicians.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMR View Post
    More to the point, point sparring maybe sucks, doing only katas sucks, and no touch KOs also suck, but if you can't distinguish between the three levels of suckishness this is a problem.
    Hmmmmm....I get your point, but this doesn't apply to a 4 minute video or uses the correct context. Yes, I went back through the video. Also, the line exists in America because our rules are weird and convoluted. So, as you just did with your explanation, many people do not understand Italy's politics, just like they do not understand American politics.

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