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  1. #1
    D Dempsey's Avatar
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    Matt Thornton on Systema

    Last week Matt Thornton put out an article critical of Systema and specifically Martin Wheeler

    http://mattthornton.org/its-aliveness-still/

    The reactions from the N. American Systema crowd are what you would expect, things like Matt should fight Martin, Matt doesn't know what he's talking about, Matt is an ignorant BJJ practitioner, etc. All very reminiscent of what the Booj does when faced with criticism.

    As someone who has been in RMA circles for over a decade, I think Matt is spot on in his criticism with his suggestion to, “Watch the feeder, not the demonstrator.” striking a real chord with me. Look Systema has gotten pretty ridiculous over the years and has tried on multiple occasions to reinvent itself. Initially the Toronto camp framed it as an elite military combatives systems, then an ancient Russian Martial Art developed by the Cossacks for warfare, and now as an inherently Russian health system that includes self defense strategies. It's all really confusing. That's not to say that there aren't some legitimately good people who have come out of that camp. Guys like Kevin Secours (Combat Systema - Actively trains with Matt Thornton and SBG), Alex Kostics (Homo Ludens), and Vasilis Stamatiou (STORM) are all great practitioners and teachers who came out of the Toronto camp. One thing to point out is they are all no longer affiliated and are now big advocates of MMA style training, and all save for Kevin have an MMA team affiliated with their gyms.

    It's a good read, and as is typical of Matt Thronton he's spot on with his criticisms.

  2. #2
    ermghoti's Avatar
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    Yay! New signature day!
    "Systema, which means, 'the system'..."

    Quote Originally Posted by strikistanian View Post
    DROP SEIONAGI ************! Except I don't know Judo, so it doesn't work, and he takes my back.
    Quote Originally Posted by Devil
    Why is it so goddamn hard to find a video of it? I've seen videos I'm pretty sure are alien spacecraft. But still no good Krav.
    Quote Originally Posted by Plasma
    At the point, I must act! You see my rashguard saids "Jiu Jitsu vs The World" and "The World" was standing in front me teaching Anti-Grappling in a school I help run.
    [quote=SoulMechanic]Thank you, not dying really rewarding in more ways than I can express.[/[quote]

  3. #3
    BackFistMonkey's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That is an excellent article.
    Nice find Dempsey.
    Quote Originally Posted by ghost55 View Post
    Violence is pretty uncommon in clubs in this area, and the dude didn't seem particularly hostile up until the moment he slapped me.
    “I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.”
    BILL HICKS,
    1961-1994

    Quote Originally Posted by WFMurphyPhD View Post
    Slamming the man in the bottom position from time to time keeps everybody on their toes and discourages butt scooting stupidity.

  4. #4
    ermghoti's Avatar
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    Links to the Systema nutrider commentary?
    "Systema, which means, 'the system'..."

    Quote Originally Posted by strikistanian View Post
    DROP SEIONAGI ************! Except I don't know Judo, so it doesn't work, and he takes my back.
    Quote Originally Posted by Devil
    Why is it so goddamn hard to find a video of it? I've seen videos I'm pretty sure are alien spacecraft. But still no good Krav.
    Quote Originally Posted by Plasma
    At the point, I must act! You see my rashguard saids "Jiu Jitsu vs The World" and "The World" was standing in front me teaching Anti-Grappling in a school I help run.
    [quote=SoulMechanic]Thank you, not dying really rewarding in more ways than I can express.[/[quote]

  5. #5
    Raycetpfl's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ermghoti View Post
    Links to the Systema nutrider commentary?
    Rigan Machado says Wheeler, "does well with brown and black belts." In unrelated news Rigan rents his dojo space for his Beverly Hills academy from Wheeler.

    Marc Denny says he hits hard and he does other stuff good too.

    Danny Inasanto says he's good.

    Rayce says they don't have footage of him actually sparring in any capacity and he hasn't participated in any dog brothers gatherings or competitions of any kind to my knowledge.
    I didn't start jiu-jitsu because of testimonials. I started cuz I watched the Gracie's **** people up. I'm going to assume Systema floppers are all pussies until proven otherwise. I don't believe in magic.

  6. #6
    ermghoti's Avatar
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    Well, yeah, but I always like a good wahmbulance ride.
    "Systema, which means, 'the system'..."

    Quote Originally Posted by strikistanian View Post
    DROP SEIONAGI ************! Except I don't know Judo, so it doesn't work, and he takes my back.
    Quote Originally Posted by Devil
    Why is it so goddamn hard to find a video of it? I've seen videos I'm pretty sure are alien spacecraft. But still no good Krav.
    Quote Originally Posted by Plasma
    At the point, I must act! You see my rashguard saids "Jiu Jitsu vs The World" and "The World" was standing in front me teaching Anti-Grappling in a school I help run.
    [quote=SoulMechanic]Thank you, not dying really rewarding in more ways than I can express.[/[quote]

  7. #7
    D Dempsey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ermghoti View Post
    Links to the Systema nutrider commentary?
    The majority of it has occurred in private Facebook groups.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raycetpfl View Post
    I didn't start jiu-jitsu because of testimonials. I started cuz I watched the Gracie's **** people up. I'm going to assume Systema floppers are all pussies until proven otherwise. I don't believe in magic.
    That's a good stance to take. If someone is fucking people up consistently and there is video of it, then it's safe to assume they are capable and skilled. If all you see are weird training videos and larger than life testimonials then it's probably bullshit.

  8. #8
    goodlun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by D Dempsey View Post
    Matt should fight Martin,

    I think this is a GREAT idea.

    For some reason though I suspect that Martin wouldn't be too keen to do so, given his complete lack of any sort of record what so ever.
    Of the single rapier fight between valiant men, having both skill, he that is the best wrestler, or if neither of them can wrestle, the strongest man most commonly kills the other, or leaves him at his mercy.
    –George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence

  9. #9
    Raycetpfl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by D Dempsey View Post
    The majority of it has occurred in private Facebook groups.



    That's a good stance to take. If someone is fucking people up consistently and there is video of it, then it's safe to assume they are capable and skilled. If all you see are weird training videos and larger than life testimonials then it's probably bullshit.
    And the testimonials are coming from cats that are past their physical combat days for the most part.
    According to the official bullshido Rabbi, Systema is basically combat sambo warm up drills that got turned into a separate (fake)martial art. That's what it seems like to me.

  10. #10
    D Dempsey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raycetpfl View Post
    And the testimonials are coming from cats that are past their physical combat days for the most part.
    According to the official bullshido Rabbi, Systema is basically combat sambo warm up drills that got turned into a separate (fake)martial art. That's what it seems like to me.
    That's not far off. Michael and I have trained together in the past and are both members of the same organization (Pramek), but he's been involved in RMA a lot longer than I have and he speaks Russian. There are some decent branches out there, but I the chances of really seeing them in N. America is pretty low as all past efforts to penetrate the market here have failed save one.

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