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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by ermghoti View Post
    I watched a couple videos (sound off though) and I can't quite figure how it works (because compliance). Does it rely on uke leaning back in reaction to the hand to the chin? Seems like it would be easily countered by footwork or sweeping the arm away to the outside.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ermghoti View Post
    I watched a couple videos (sound off though) and I can't quite figure how it works (because compliance). Does it rely on uke leaning back in reaction to the hand to the chin? Seems like it would be easily countered by footwork or sweeping the arm away to the outside.
    I am not Aikidoka.
    So, I tend to view Aikido through my Wrestler/Judoka/BJJ glasses.

    Wearing my Judo glasses, here is the great Yamashita, arguably Japan's finest Judo heavy weight, explaining the kuzushi for Osoto Gari, using a very similar effect to the Kuzushi of open palm Shomenate as it has been explained to me (see the 2:22 mark):


    In addition the Kuzushi factor of obtaining even a slight misalignment of the spine by pushing the chin/nose/face/head upward with an open hand,
    even failing to achieve lifting technique on the face to disalign the spine
    and merely putting one's open hand in the face can be annoying, blinding, and cause one's opponent to react in less optimal ways than they normally would.
    Here we see an example of this in Sumo wrestling:


    Finally, an open handed strike to the face, delivered with either full body step through, or from a more striking rather than throwing intention, can generate a lot of power and preserve the knuckles of one's hand from breaking in a gloveless and wrapless striking situation.
    Bas Rutten, in particular was a master of knocking people out with open handed "palm strikes" using his wrist bone at the bottom of his palm to help people go sleepy-night-night (see sec 13, 2:25, and 3:50):


    The Tomiki aikido people tell me they use Shomenate as a "bail out" technique when they are late, mai (distance) is penetrated unfavorably (opponent got into grappling or striking range), or their other stuff just did not work, which they expect to happen all the time with squirrely, athletic opponents.
    Here is Karl Geis protege Nick Lowry demonstrating a Tomiki Aikido Shomenate "bail out" from a wrist release by redirecting the opponents momentum to his face when he attempts to pull out of the counter technique done to his own original wrist grab:


    Notice the uke ends up with tori's hand and uke's own arm covering his face, and ended up there off of uke's own self-generated movement, slightly redirected into a shomenate since uke decided to take his arm back from Tori while Tori was trying to execute a wrist release technique to counter uke's wrist grab.

    However, you can also do shomenate to people who are playing guard.
    Or if they walk up and with attempt to grab you.
    Or that are doing other things.
    It is annoying to put your hand in people's faces and tilt their head back.
    If you step in between their legs with the same side leg as the hand you are going to shomenate with, and then raise the shomenate arm up as part of that step through, tilting your opponent's head back, it becomes a nasty throw with an osoto gari type head-back-they-had-better-tuck-their chin-before-they-hit-fall.

    You see this type of throw in a lot of the older Jiu-Jitsu systems prior to World War II.
    And Shomenate is one of the counter techniques to Kodokan Judo players explicitly described in some historical Japanese letters pre-World War II as having some efficacy against Judo players, acknowledged by both Kodokan folks and their opponents, because the Kodokan had made the technique illegal in Judo randori and Shiai in its own training model early on as it resulted in accidental eye pokes, disrupted practicing other techniques, and was seen more as an atem-waza than grappling attack.
    So, in cross style fights, it was considered a good idea to Sumo push your Judo player opponent in the face as he attempted to lay both hands on your to attempt his throw as the kuzushi for your own throw, leading to Mifune sensei once commenting that atemi waza is often the best way to unbalance your opponent before you throw, and designing his own goshin jutsu kata around this idea, in conjunction with a high level Judo student of his who was also a high level student of Aiki-Jutsu.

    Long story, short: It is often an effective idea to hit someone in their face as a complement to one's grappling techniques or as a counter to grappling techniques.
    If you hit with a closed fist, you may hurt your hand.
    And open palm strike to the face can be done as a strike, a push, or even a throw in its own right.

    Opinions from actual Aikidoka or skeptics / critics to my points above are of course welcome for counter point.
    Last edited by WFMurphyPhD; 9/18/2017 7:54am at .

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    Aikido works on teh str33t.

    Looked like he got his leg there too though.
    "Systema, which means, 'the system'..."

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    Why is it so goddamn hard to find a video of it? I've seen videos I'm pretty sure are alien spacecraft. But still no good Krav.
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  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by ermghoti View Post
    Looked like he got his leg there too though.
    You're right, it was more an aigamae ate than a shomen ate.

    In aigamae ate tori steps outside:



    ... in shomen ate tori steps inside:


  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golddust420 View Post
    Respectfully I would like to share. Aikijutsu, Daito Ryu, Taijutsu...these are dirived from Japan. When you say that aikido or its origins are not real I have to correct you. Respectfully the idea of grappling and fighting is embarrising. I agree that alot of aikido is not practiced as a deadly martial art, I should tell you that Aikido is based on the sword. Aikido is based on the sword. While your bjj is grappling some grunt on the ground, we are disarming and killing multiple sword attackers. An aikido technique done correctly is devistating. The reason you grapple is that you failed to execute a proper technique. Please show respect for others.
    420...Lol...
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  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMR View Post
    We have something similar in Nippon Kempo (but only in kata/formal exercises), the palm is supposed to push the opponent's chin upwards, so that uke is forced to bend backwards. We conclude this by blocking uke's backward movement by placing a hand behind his hips.

    Another version that I think is better is that you do an o-soto-gari and ude your "lapel hand" to push uke's chin upwards, like in shomen ate.
    Tsuki Age...common in Judo...
    Falling for Judo since 1980

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  7. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Tsuki Age...common in Judo...
    But tsuki age as performed in the goshin jutsu is an uppercut, basically, whereas what we are doing is more like a throw. The percussion is more or less contemporaneous to the throw, it's not a setup.

    EDIT:
    Like, when you do o-soto whit a collar grip, and use your shoulder to force uke's head backward and downwards; only using the palm instead of the shoulder.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by WFMurphyPhD View Post
    I am not Aikidoka.
    So, I tend to view Aikido through my Wrestler/Judoka/BJJ glasses.

    Wearing my Judo glasses, here is the great Yamashita, arguably Japan's finest Judo heavy weight, explaining the kuzushi for Osoto Gari, using a very similar effect to the Kuzushi of open palm Shomenate as it has been explained to me (see the 2:22 mark):


    In addition the Kuzushi factor of obtaining even a slight misalignment of the spine by pushing the chin/nose/face/head upward with an open hand,
    even failing to achieve lifting technique on the face to disalign the spine
    and merely putting one's open hand in the face can be annoying, blinding, and cause one's opponent to react in less optimal ways than they normally would.
    Here we see an example of this in Sumo wrestling:


    Finally, an open handed strike to the face, delivered with either full body step through, or from a more striking rather than throwing intention, can generate a lot of power and preserve the knuckles of one's hand from breaking in a gloveless and wrapless striking situation.
    Bas Rutten, in particular was a master of knocking people out with open handed "palm strikes" using his wrist bone at the bottom of his palm to help people go sleepy-night-night (see sec 13, 2:25, and 3:50):


    The Tomiki aikido people tell me they use Shomenate as a "bail out" technique when they are late, mai (distance) is penetrated unfavorably (opponent got into grappling or striking range), or their other stuff just did not work, which they expect to happen all the time with squirrely, athletic opponents.
    Here is Karl Geis protege Nick Lowry demonstrating a Tomiki Aikido Shomenate "bail out" from a wrist release by redirecting the opponents momentum to his face when he attempts to pull out of the counter technique done to his own original wrist grab:


    Notice the uke ends up with tori's hand and uke's own arm covering his face, and ended up there off of uke's own self-generated movement, slightly redirected into a shomenate since uke decided to take his arm back from Tori while Tori was trying to execute a wrist release technique to counter uke's wrist grab.

    However, you can also do shomenate to people who are playing guard.
    Or if they walk up and with attempt to grab you.
    Or that are doing other things.
    It is annoying to put your hand in people's faces and tilt their head back.
    If you step in between their legs with the same side leg as the hand you are going to shomenate with, and then raise the shomenate arm up as part of that step through, tilting your opponent's head back, it becomes a nasty throw with an osoto gari type head-back-they-had-better-tuck-their chin-before-they-hit-fall.

    You see this type of throw in a lot of the older Jiu-Jitsu systems prior to World War II.
    And Shomenate is one of the counter techniques to Kodokan Judo players explicitly described in some historical Japanese letters pre-World War II as having some efficacy against Judo players, acknowledged by both Kodokan folks and their opponents, because the Kodokan had made the technique illegal in Judo randori and Shiai in its own training model early on as it resulted in accidental eye pokes, disrupted practicing other techniques, and was seen more as an atem-waza than grappling attack.
    So, in cross style fights, it was considered a good idea to Sumo push your Judo player opponent in the face as he attempted to lay both hands on your to attempt his throw as the kuzushi for your own throw, leading to Mifune sensei once commenting that atemi waza is often the best way to unbalance your opponent before you throw, and designing his own goshin jutsu kata around this idea, in conjunction with a high level Judo student of his who was also a high level student of Aiki-Jutsu.

    Long story, short: It is often an effective idea to hit someone in their face as a complement to one's grappling techniques or as a counter to grappling techniques.
    If you hit with a closed fist, you may hurt your hand.
    And open palm strike to the face can be done as a strike, a push, or even a throw in its own right.

    Opinions from actual Aikidoka or skeptics / critics to my points above are of course welcome for counter point.
    The use of the tsurite (while gripping the collar) against uke face/chin/head/neck is common in normal Kodokan Judo. It's not exactly a strike, and is called "tsuki age" or "chin poke". Often used by shorter tori against a taller uke.

    A normal example would be say, Kouchi Gari, or Osoto Gari.

    And judoka get those cauliflower ears from something other than ne waza. Why you see so many with a left ear all mashed and the right not as mashed up.
    Falling for Judo since 1980

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  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMR View Post
    But tsuki age as performed in the goshin jutsu is an uppercut, basically, whereas what we are doing is more like a throw. The percussion is more or less contemporaneous to the throw, it's not a setup.

    EDIT:
    Like, when you do o-soto whit a collar grip, and use your shoulder to force uke's head backward and downwards; only using the palm instead of the shoulder.
    Tsuki Age is the technique name, whether you hold the collar or not.

    Dude, it's a set up when you sock a guy under his chin, whether you think it is or not. It's just that the "setup" happens nearly simultaneously when things are full-speed.

    If you are shorter than uke, you can't get your chin under their shoulder. Believe me, I know that all too well...
    Last edited by BKR; 9/18/2017 1:41pm at .
    Falling for Judo since 1980

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    "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

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