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Thread: ITCCA Taiji

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by L'Doughnut View Post
    Hi, this is my first post to this forum and the reason why I registered here.

    So, I have been practicing Yang style taiji for some years in a organization called ITCCA that claims to be teaching the "original" Yang style and therefore special and better than anyone else. The organization is run by the mighty chinese master, Chu King Hung, who moved to Europe and established it somewhere in -70's.

    Now the problem I am having is that eventhough I like studying taiji in my school and wouldn't like to change school, ITCCA is so full of 1) itself and 2) bullshit. Now, to the actual issues:

    1) we practice only very little pushing hands and the martial elements of the form or other exercises are practically never discussed (and they seem to be complete BS, atleast according to the little evidence I have seen.)
    2) the "originality" claim seems to be complete marketing trick, and highly annoying one. ITCCA's yang style seems rather different from all the other yang's I have seen. The elbow lifting technique (so-called "opening our wings") especially is something I haven't seen done anywhere else. Either, everyone else is wrong and Chu is the real master, or, more probably, he is just teaching one of the many variants of yang style.
    3) "The master", Chu King Hung seems to be most typical TMA chi-master, who believes that the power of taiji comes from the chi and that the movement of chi is the crucial part of taiji. There are many videos of his "chi-pushes" on youtube. Now, I'm not saying that he wouldn't actually push these guys, but only that he pushes them on a very resticted manner and only when no one trying to stop him from doing it. In classes, we have (sadly) done similiar excercies and you really can make many people move if they are compliant. To consider this technique a mark of actual chi or good MA is of course complete bullshit.

    So, what do you think? Have I mixed myself in fraud or am I one of the few who are studying the "real art".

    (I had many links in the text but it seems that I can't post them because the forum doesn't believe I'm not a bot. So, you have to dig youtube and google yourself!)
    If you want the real tai chi, here is your man...
    https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...y=chen+ziqiang
    Falling for Judo since 1980

    "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

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  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    If you want the real tai chi, here is your man...
    https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...y=chen+ziqiang
    Yes indeedy.

    The skeptic will say "but that's not Yang style!"

    To which I say "no real tai chi masters are strangers to sparring."

  3. #13
    BKR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BFGalbraith View Post
    Yes indeedy.

    The skeptic will say "but that's not Yang style!"

    To which I say "no real tai chi masters are strangers to sparring."
    I bet in live sparring once would be hard-pressed to tell the difference between Chen and Yang...

    Wait, the Chen guys would be the ones left standing !
    Falling for Judo since 1980

    "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

    "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

    "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by L'Doughnut View Post
    Now I have my 5 posts and I can post links, so lets see what I can find...
    And one more with Chu King Hung. I have no idea what they say, because I don't speak french, but try to survive. There are more of these "energy tests", see eg. 11.20:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tsEfsabFbc
    Alright, one thing at a time here.

    1) Bogus looking energy stunts:

    Various martial arts masters have been good at one parlor trick or another to impress people at demos. The founder of Kudo broke a massive stack of ice so big that it was taller than him. Does that have anything to do with fighting? Nope, but that doesn't mean he didn't found an awesome martial art that produces good fighters.

    The energy stunts you are skeptical of are parlor tricks. YOU can do them. Have five people stand off balance with their hands on each other's shoulders and their arms locked, and give the first one a good shove... dominoes. Much easier than breaking ice with your elbow.

    The energy stunt to watch out for is when people start flying when the master has not physically touched them. At this point the "master" is doing more cult than martial art, because his students are physically responding to his suggestions, so that's mental conditioning etc. I haven't seen THAT in any of your videos.

    2) Is this legit Yang Style?

    Unfortunately, I have to say Yes. Looks very legit. Unfortunately most Yang stylists don't get passed the push hands drills and into push hands sparring. Don't get me wrong, it's not exactly like the most-special-type-of-yang-style-ever I leaned, but it looks like it's well within the bounds of what passes for legit Yang style.

    3) What is the difference between Push Hands drills and Push Hands Sparring?

    Push hands drills is what you posted. There's and endless supply of push hands patterns out there, basically what they all do is (when you do them trying to really push the other person off balance) is help you develop a solid stance.

    Push hands sparring is a stylized form of wrestling which focuses on manipulating your opponent while you yourself stay standing up on two feet. Like this:


    4) Is that all that's missing from most Yang schools, push hands sparring?

    No, push hands sparring leads into full blown Sanda, San Shou, Chinese kickboxing, whatever you want to call it. The Chinese Kickboxing rules strongly favor Tai Chi and Chinese Wrestling by design:


    I will also add that if you don't do sword sparring you don't know sword fighting, though the only Tai Chi guys I met that are serious about that are from a supposedly pre-Chen version of Tai Chi (Wudang Dan Pai.) There probably are serious Tai Chi fencers that I have not met.

    5) So if Yang Style doesn't do this, can Yang style be complete without these forms of sparring?

    No, and here's why:
    a) Chen Style has various schools that are serious about sparring. Yang style came from Chen style (with some Pa Kua and Hsing-I added, both of which have schools that are serious about sparring.)
    b) Wu style came from Yang style, and Wu style has schools that are serious about sparring.
    c) This puts Yang style in a historical sandwich between two Tai Chi styles that are much more serious on average about sparring than Yang style schools are.


    6) If I live in a place where only Yang style is available (aka most places where any Tai Chi training is available,) how do I learn the real Tai Chi?

    Take it to the next level. If you can find some other Tai Chi skeptics to spar with, then do some of that Tai Chi sparring where you try to get the other person on the ground or out of the circle.

    Learn what you can from your instructors, while cross training in MMA.



    See also:



    Pretty sure that's Yang style as well.
    Last edited by BFGalbraith; 4/04/2017 5:43pm at .

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Wait, the Chen guys would be the ones left standing !
    Very true if we are talking about typical school vs. typical school, but I have seen weak Chen style before, so much so that I don't know if I can even vouch for the average Chen school...

    Beating a dead horse here, but yeah when sparring begins it is hard enough to tell the difference between Muay Thai and Tai Chi in a San Shou match (assuming it's not a sucker getting in the ring with a kick boxer), least bit two Tai Chi guys doing push hands sparring.

    IMHO the forms are the least important part of Tai Chi. Basically you have rooting exercise (standing mediation) which goes to stationary push hands (push hands drills) to push hands sparring (stand up grappling) to San Shou (kickboxing). IMHO Pa Kua is pretty much Tai Chi when you drop the forms, probably most other Wudang martial arts as well.

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