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  1. #1

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Grab my shirt, no here

    Special note: this is not about arts that work all the time.

    Are self defence techniques representations of actual conflict? This is the question, ill add some additional points to further this discussion.

    For a long time those of us in the west have had an infatuation with the mystical east. Their culture, language, food, archetecture and of course arts martial and otherwise. There are countless demonstrations of self defence techniques showcasing methods of escape or defeating your opponent when attacked a certain way. But how effective are they?

    Bruce lee once criticized these traditional martial arts techniques, saying a 10 step process before you even do anything is ridiculous, and it is. These techniques are like a labrotory test, they were in exactly specific circumstances. In these circumstances they work, but when sped up they do not especially when faced with continuous attack and not just one punch or your opponent stopping at a shirt grab.

    For decades this has been going on, but why has no one questioned this? Are we meant to have almost super human reflexes? Are we not to question the sensei? Do we not possess reasoning ability? Are we preserving the 'art' or are we just buying into the fantasy?

    For the sake of time ill adress one of the forementioned items. Speed. Soon as somone attacks you need to react and employ the technique, but as the saying goes action is daster than reaction. Hypothetically if you saw the attack wouldnt avoidance be easier and less risky than the self defence technique? (This goes double if weapons are involved)

    Others have adressed all these issues in their own way. *Enter the reality based self defence programs*.
    In an effort to filter the bullshit RSBD programs have taken a more simpler approach. A set of go to techniques in a simulated environment where agression is high and you are not limited to cat stance monkey paw to the face to spinning crane kick. The irony behind the RBSD programs is they have never more been too detached from reality.

    The expectation to teach solid techniques to the untrained in an agressive environment with little to soft contact is the major flaw.

    So currently we have traditional martial arts whos self defence component is being attacked in an unnatural way vs being not so attacked in a natural way.

    Were practitioners of old being attacked by puppets?

    Why dont RSBD practitioners follow through with their attacks?

    There are a group of techniques shared by both old and new martial arts/systems that do work, but fundamentally where these systems fail is the practitioners are (im afraid to say this) pussies. I base this off the exception and not the rule as there have been successful traditional martial artists that are more than capable of backing themselves.

    Are we people to blame for the direction of martial arts or have we simply not refined them?

    If these arts or systems completly failed should we abandon them (like how many stopped practising jiujitsu after meiji restoration) and only use proven arts?

    Is pussification of arts avoidable? (think boxercise, cardio kickboxing, tybo)

  2. #2
    DCS's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As a starter, I think you should read this interview with historian Karl Friday

    https://www.facebook.com/notes/samur...y/146923894761

    Especially the last part, where he answers to "SA: It’s very uncommon to see an academic historian (as opposed to a ‘pop culture’ historian) who has had extensive training in traditional Japanese martial arts. Has your experience in this field led to insights in your published works? How have these arts evolved and changed since the days of extensive warfare in the Sengoku?"

  3. #3

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Isn't that how you learn techniques in BJJ? The 1-2-3 method? He's in your guard, then you shrimp and/or avoid a punch, then you bring a leg up and over, then you extend and apply an armbar? Obviously you have to learn the techniques in phases, properly and slowly and safely, before you apply it in randori (or, kata and then randori, for TMA). It's most likely that no one is going to come up and casually take hold of your right wrist and then punch you in the face with their right. But that's how you learn that particular technique, so when you're sparring or in a real situation, if your clinched or wrestling and he quickly grabs your wrist, your body will immediately remember how to move properly, not just freeze and start tugging on his grabbing hand.

    I've actually had co-workers come look over my shoulder when watching Kosen Judo videos on Youtube and say, "I don't think that would work because when he's in your guard in real life, he's going to be punching, elbowing and headbutting you, he's not going to sit there and allow you to apply ude-garami". You could say the same thing about an Aikido knife disarm or a BJJ berimbolo. What you're seeing is a brief moment during the chaos of randori.

    But I do agree that TMA have too many wrist grabs and collar holds, and not enough "clinches" and headlocks and types of holds you're more likely to experience in a real situation. But when your sparring it's surprising how many times the opponent grabs your wrist to control you, and that's when the technique pops out.

  4. #4

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ive tried to instigate a discussion with this thread, perhaps tried too hard.

    In response to the 1,2,3 method. Sure breaking things down makes it easier to learn especially the finer details. But a multiple step process for something that is unrealistic or and in most cases static is pure bullshit. For example.

    Somone grabs your shirt, alot of techs never look past this, sometimes they are addressed and sometimes not. No one just grabs your shirt, they will either try grappling or punch you with the free hand.

    When comparing this to bjj the techs are in stages yes, you drill them with little resistance yes also. The difference is however is you get to test all the techs in a live situation where people can not pretend to go hard but actually do in a safe manner.

    Your work friends saying a guy in guard can punch you, it is possible but if you look at Kron Gracie's last fight, he prevented his opponent doing just that by controlling his head and not allowing him to posture up. I dont want this to be about bjj is better than everything else.

    Which brings me to another point which RBSD is more of an offender than any other art/system.

    Ill start off by saying the legit systems can teach good ways fighting and defending ones self but they also teach you safty in doing so. In my previous experience with RBSD i found i was getting alot of avoidable injuries. Now theres a few reasons for this.

    Firstly people get carried away especially the inexperienced. Secondly improper instruction and safeguards (for example a senior student who got his thumb dislocated during a gun disarm due to a lack of understanding by the tori). Thirdly over reliance on protective equipment, people generally think over protection is a good thing (had a girl get her jaw broken and concussed by a punch that landed in a spot where these particular helmets were weak. Also got two scars on my chin from the steel face protector smashing into my face during a class with 'boxing rules'). Last but not least when you teach certain legit dangerous techniques (like neck cranks for example) to people who are very inexperienced or lack some form of control the end results can catastrophic.
    Last edited by Kravbizarre; 3/02/2017 11:13pm at .

  5. #5

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    As a starter, I think you should read this interview with historian Karl Friday

    https://www.facebook.com/notes/samur...y/146923894761

    Especially the last part, where he answers to "SA: It’s very uncommon to see an academic historian (as opposed to a ‘pop culture’ historian) who has had extensive training in traditional Japanese martial arts. Has your experience in this field led to insights in your published works? How have these arts evolved and changed since the days of extensive warfare in the Sengoku?"

    iirc it was also Karl Friday who found a document dated in the 1670's about a MA teacher lamenting the spread of kaho kenpo aka flowery swordsmanship. a lil history here: one of the last great battles of the warring states period in japan happened in sekigahara in 1600, the next sounded the end of war at Osaka 1614-15. then a rebellion at Shimabara, 1637-38. going by that, a century wasn't needed after the wars to have bullshido sprout in japanese martial arts!

    btw, the 1-2-3 method is fine if:

    1. the preceeding step supports the suceeding one.

    2. you have a proving ground to test whether the preceeding step REALLY supports the next one.

    and by extension, the attacker in many TMA and RBSD is doomed to failure by social conditioning, either by calling them Uke (just a receiver of the technique to be trained) and by the lack of benefits (the defenders are paying customers, must not hurt them, physically or most often ego-wise, or else lose paying students). and in comparison, look at prizefighting/ combat sports and war: the more i hurt the enemy, the more benefits i get and better to hurt them first, fast and furious cuz it lessens their ability to hurt me. that mindset separates the wheat from the chaff, something not found in competitive TMA and RBSD.

  6. #6
    DCS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by baby_cart View Post
    iirc it was also Karl Friday who found a document dated in the 1670's about a MA teacher lamenting the spread of kaho kenpo aka flowery swordsmanship. a lil history here: one of the last great battles of the warring states period in japan happened in sekigahara in 1600, the next sounded the end of war at Osaka 1614-15. then a rebellion at Shimabara, 1637-38. going by that, a century wasn't needed after the wars to have bullshido sprout in japanese martial arts!
    Especially when battles were won by firearms and jujutsu/swordmanship played a very small role.

    btw, the 1-2-3 method is fine if:

    1. the preceeding step supports the suceeding one.

    2. you have a proving ground to test whether the preceeding step REALLY supports the next one.
    This, but devising a testing method for "the deadly" is too difficult and to some point counterproductive. Getting seriously injured as a result of training for something that probably is never going to happen is a bit silly.

  7. #7

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I liken it to learning how to shoot in the military. First you learn about the weapon, how to break it down and clean it, the history of the cartridge, and the weapon your enemy will be using. Then you go to the range and learn what proper sight picture should look like, you learn to fire from multiple positions, you learn proper breathing and squeezing methods, how to clear a malfunction, how to lead, how to fire at night, firing and maneuvering, and how to fire in semi and fully-automatic. This is the kata. It's unrealistic because the enemy is not going to stand still out in the open at 100 meters; he's going to be running for cover and firing back at you.

    Randori is the laser tag or paintball application, where you actually get to run and shoot (in a safe, controlled environment), sometimes with explosives going off, and smoke or tear gas grenades exploding. It's chaos, you're trying to talk on the radio in a gas mask, and no one knows what is happening when you are ambushed. It's more realistic, but still not real combat. The only way to train for "teh relz" would be to shoot at each other with live ammunition (think of biting and fish-hooking and gouging, etc). No one wants to do that in randori, but it is a possibility in the real world.

    Our enemies skip the kata and go straight to randori. They stand out in the middle of the street, scream and yell and "spray and pray", burn up whole magazines and do it all wrong. Our guys train to be riflemen first, and win at pretty much every encounter.

    So, any technique worth learning should be taught and learned slowly and properly, then used in application later. I think everyone agrees on this. It's just the particular attack that you don't like (wrist grabs and static knife thrusts).

  8. #8
    ermghoti's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The bullshido version of firearm training and unit tactics would be "of course it is too dangerous to manuever with live ammunition, and since training with simunition would instill false confidence, we only shoot at targets, using one round in the magazine to promote the essential one shot one kill mentality."

    There's a different problem with wrist grabs, static knife attacks, and handgun disarms. They are generally trained in a way to guarantee success for the defender, in a way that looks good. Thks is prioritized of whether resistance is likely to defeat the defense, or whether the attack would ever be encountered in the wild. I've come to the position that 90%+ of unarmed knife defenses are trained against attacks that will never occur. Only angry (not murderous) women do the overhand icepick knife swing, and you don't need any special training to disarm somebody who doesn't actually want to hurt you.
    Last edited by ermghoti; 3/03/2017 8:44am at .
    "Systema, which means, 'the system'..."

    Quote Originally Posted by strikistanian View Post
    DROP SEIONAGI ************! Except I don't know Judo, so it doesn't work, and he takes my back.
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    Why is it so goddamn hard to find a video of it? I've seen videos I'm pretty sure are alien spacecraft. But still no good Krav.
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    At the point, I must act! You see my rashguard saids "Jiu Jitsu vs The World" and "The World" was standing in front me teaching Anti-Grappling in a school I help run.
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  9. #9
    Kovacs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ermghoti View Post
    The bullshido version of firearm training and unit tactics would be "of course it is too dangerous to manuever with live ammunition, and since training with simunition would instill false confidence, we only shoot at targets, using one round in the magazine to promote the essential one shot one kill mentality."

    There's a different problem with wrist grabs, static knife attacks, and handgun disarms. They are generally trained in a way to guarantee success for the defender, in a way that looks good. Thks is prioritized of whether resistance is likely to defeat the defense, or whether the attack would ever be encountered in the wild. I've come to the position that 90%+ of unarmed knife defenses are trained against attacks that will never occur. Only angry (not murderous) women do the overhand icepick knife swing, and you don't need any special training to disarm somebody who doesn't actually want to hurt you.
    Or take it a step further and make it Airsoft. Screw basic skills and drills, marksmanship principles or tactics. Just look cool and sit in the car when it starts raining.
    Ne Obliviscaris

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    This, but devising a testing method for "the deadly" is too difficult and to some point counterproductive. Getting seriously injured as a result of training for something that probably is never going to happen is a bit silly.
    well, bullets are the real d34dly, but training can be simulated thru MILES, paintball and simunition.

    most "d34dly" from the TMA and RBSD side are real deadly cuz the uke aint actively defending against it. hell, even a slam from the stack caused a fatality in bjj cuz it's trained to keep hanging on even when lifted. when was the the last time biting, eyepoking, fishhooking and groinbusting made one a paraphlegic? deadly this, deadly that, most of it bullshit. and i'm not even touching on how to efficiently carve somebody with a knife, much less on why don't they train for countering that.

    Quote Originally Posted by kevin g View Post
    I liken it to learning how to shoot in the military. First you learn about the weapon, how to break it down and clean it, the history of the cartridge, and the weapon your enemy will be using. Then you go to the range and learn what proper sight picture should look like, you learn to fire from multiple positions, you learn proper breathing and squeezing methods, how to clear a malfunction, how to lead, how to fire at night, firing and maneuvering, and how to fire in semi and fully-automatic. This is the kata. It's unrealistic because the enemy is not going to stand still out in the open at 100 meters; he's going to be running for cover and firing back at you.

    Randori is the laser tag or paintball application, where you actually get to run and shoot (in a safe, controlled environment), sometimes with explosives going off, and smoke or tear gas grenades exploding. It's chaos, you're trying to talk on the radio in a gas mask, and no one knows what is happening when you are ambushed. It's more realistic, but still not real combat. The only way to train for "teh relz" would be to shoot at each other with live ammunition (think of biting and fish-hooking and gouging, etc). No one wants to do that in randori, but it is a possibility in the real world.

    Our enemies skip the kata and go straight to randori. They stand out in the middle of the street, scream and yell and "spray and pray", burn up whole magazines and do it all wrong. Our guys train to be riflemen first, and win at pretty much every encounter.

    So, any technique worth learning should be taught and learned slowly and properly, then used in application later. I think everyone agrees on this. It's just the particular attack that you don't like (wrist grabs and static knife thrusts).
    it's very sad that due to the exclusion of the d34dly that randori is usually pooh-poohed by the usual suspects. aka "because the training you propose does not include the whole spectrum we'd rather limit ourselves to simulating encounters and simulating applying lethal techniques," the very opposite of the "enemies" that skip the kata, this time never progressing beyond the kata.

    and why should they go beyond the kata? they have much to lose (possible injuries and humiliation) and less to gain if they go to the step of alive training. they aint gonna get themselves ktfo in a match or sent to a war tomorrow. only those who really have "skin in the game" have their asses on fire in confirming that this **** they're training in really works. cuz if it doesn't, then they can kiss their asses goodbye. most train this stuff for fun, or teach it for the money, it only changes when one personally bets his own health and life on this, only then bs is thrown out and the good stuff is retained. it's a matter of motivation, really.

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