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  1. #1

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Am I the only one who has experienced this? Legit tap by a lower belt.

    So this is something that has been bothering me for awhile. I've been teaching SAMBO and then Jiu Jitsu for the past 22 years. Over those years I've told my grappling students that their job was to finally beat me, make me tap, whatever. So over the years I've tapped to a few of them as I guided them through techniques and allowed them to move to submissions without acknowledging that they got a legit tap. I have even had people quit because they would think:
    a. I tapped the instructor so he must suck
    b. I tapped the instructor but he won't acknowledge it so he's disingenuous.
    c. Claimed I threw them out because they tapped me.


    When somebody taps me on the mat we make a huge deal of it. We actually stop the entire class to let everybody know it happened. So am I the only instructor that gets butt sore students come through or is this something that happens often. If so, do share.

  2. #2
    BKR's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    So this is something that has been bothering me for awhile. I've been teaching SAMBO and then Jiu Jitsu for the past 22 years. Over those years I've told my grappling students that their job was to finally beat me, make me tap, whatever. So over the years I've tapped to a few of them as I guided them through techniques and allowed them to move to submissions without acknowledging that they got a legit tap. I have even had people quit because they would think:
    a. I tapped the instructor so he must suck
    b. I tapped the instructor but he won't acknowledge it so he's disingenuous.
    c. Claimed I threw them out because they tapped me.


    When somebody taps me on the mat we make a huge deal of it. We actually stop the entire class to let everybody know it happened. So am I the only instructor that gets butt sore students come through or is this something that happens often. If so, do share.
    Tapping isn't such a big deal in Judo, however, getting thrown is. The same thing happens regarding throwing, though.

    Short answer is yes, I've had students quit, or be obviously disdainful, when they "tapped" me, or pinned me, or threw me while training. As I get older so much older, that happens more often (pinned, thrown, tapped).

    I also tell my students their job is to be better than me. Certainly if they want to succeed at higher levels of competition, they had better be better than I am now or when I was in my "prime".

    Back when I could still perform optimally, I had students who would throw me in training (randori), and get all happy about it. I did the same thing my instructors did when I seemed happy to have thrown them, I went ahead and went into full speed competition mode on them for 30 seconds. That usually calmed them down a bit...

    I've been legitimately tapped/thrown/pinned by my students. We don't make a big deal out of it though, unless the student wants to do a victory lap...
    Last edited by BKR; 2/08/2017 5:24pm at .
    Falling for Judo since 1980

    "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

    "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

    "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

  3. #3
    NeilG's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If my students manage to legitimately tag me, great for them. However, I am never going 100% against the students. This is the concept of "hikitake keiko", pulling-up practice. Be just a little better than the student, so that they have a chance to hit you if they try their best, but not so much better that they feel overwhelmed and with no chance. My sensei is really good at this. We once had an old member come back for a visit after a few years away, and he commented that sensei had gotten much better. His reply was, "I haven't changed much, you've gotten better". Sensei just needed to play him at a higher level to keep that little gap, or as me and an old friend say, "dial up the ol' schmuck-o-meter".

    I know of some other clubs where political problems have occurred when students start to consistently be better than the sensei, and feel the need to challenge authority. This has not happened in our club, as there are no students including me who are consistently better than my sensei. Having a strong technical authority is good for political stability.

  4. #4
    Raycetpfl's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    So this is something that has been bothering me for awhile. I've been teaching SAMBO and then Jiu Jitsu for the past 22 years. Over those years I've told my grappling students that their job was to finally beat me, make me tap, whatever. So over the years I've tapped to a few of them as I guided them through techniques and allowed them to move to submissions without acknowledging that they got a legit tap. I have even had people quit because they would think:
    a. I tapped the instructor so he must suck
    b. I tapped the instructor but he won't acknowledge it so he's disingenuous.
    c. Claimed I threw them out because they tapped me.


    When somebody taps me on the mat we make a huge deal of it. We actually stop the entire class to let everybody know it happened. So am I the only instructor that gets butt sore students come through or is this something that happens often. If so, do share.
    If you train with somebody 10000 times you're likely to slip once or land funny or some sort of anomaly to happen where they're able to catch you. It's happened to me once or twice in the eight years I've been teaching. It's when they can catch you several times in a short amount of time it's legit.
    That being said Marcelo Garcia Taps all the time in training. The way you can get better with less skilled people for training partners is by putting yourself in a horribly disadvantageous position and working out of it. If you are constantly "flirting with death" in training you're gonna get caught. If you're not flirting with death how are you going to push your boundaries? I was caught by one of my purple belts during a 2 on 1 match after about 30 minutes. 1 weighs 240 and 1 weigh's 180. The time before that I beat them me vs them. Cry in training and laugh in battle.
    For competitors in particular I believe you have to save some for the match so to speak. If I am a couple weeks out from a tournament I will tap to Landing funny or a neck crank so that I don't leave it all in the training room and can stay healthy . Missing the medal stand because you're too proud to tap to somebody you're better than is f****** silly.

  5. #5
    gregaquaman's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    yeah. pretty much.
    Whitsunday Martial Arts Airlie Beach North Queensland.
    http://www.facebook.com/#!/WhitsundayMartialArts

  6. #6

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm not into blind loyalty by any means, but overt arrogance from "besting" your coach when said individual has made an effort to be somewhat courteous is in poor taste.

    Tyson could undoubtedly get the better of Cus D'Amato in the ring- does that mean that the latter wasn't fit to coach him?

    Long story short, reaching the point where you can get the better of your instructor- whether due to technical improvement on your part, the result of aging on the teachers behalf or both- is not necessarily an indication that he/she has nothing left to give
    Last edited by Aka-Tora; 2/09/2017 8:48am at .

  7. #7
    Bullshido's Greatest Ninja staff
    plasma's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have definitely gotten submitted by people that were lower rank that I was teaching. I remember digging for an over/under pass against a blue belt I taught for a few years. He successfully hit me with a high-elbow guillotine that I taught him. It was legit, I made a mistake and he caught me. I was happy he was learning what I was teaching. I been on the other side of that as well, and have submitted more than 1 of my instructors over the years. It just training and I know they were happy that I was improving under their instruction.

  8. #8

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It's an ego thing, the first thing people are genuinely asked to leave at the door when training. Ive seen it across different clubs from both students and teachers

  9. #9
    BKR's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kimjonghng View Post
    It's an ego thing, the first thing people are genuinely asked to leave at the door when training. Ive seen it across different clubs from both students and teachers
    The whole "leave your ego at the door" thing is kinda silly. If you can voluntarily leave your ego at the door, that would be pretty darned incredible.

    If you mean "control your behavior", as in don't purposely hurt anybody, and follow the rules, then, yeah, maybe...

    Hard training exposes your (unhealthy/needs to be modified) ego, among other things, so you can get some self-awareness. Maybe...
    Falling for Judo since 1980

    "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

    "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

    "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

  10. #10
    NeilG's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Certainly the battle with the ego is one of the big ones. In kendo, we often see the very athletically talented quit early. These are people who have had success in every sport, but they are getting their ass handed to them by a mildly overweight 65 year old man with a bum ankle.

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