1. #511
    BackFistMonkey's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As far as American immigrants go, they are what made and make America great, historically and today. Our country would look and be completely different without them.

    Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
    With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
    Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
    A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
    Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
    Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
    Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
    The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
    “Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she
    With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
    Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
    The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
    Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
    I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”
    People seeking a place in our modern free society should be expected to join and participate in the modern free society and not recreate the environments of religious extremism which they are escaping. It is also our duty as members of said societies to keep any and all flavors of religious extremism and racism in check. People can believe what they want until their beliefs step on another's rights.
    Quote Originally Posted by ghost55 View Post
    Violence is pretty uncommon in clubs in this area, and the dude didn't seem particularly hostile up until the moment he slapped me.
    I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.
    BILL HICKS,
    1961-1994

    Quote Originally Posted by WFMurphyPhD View Post
    Slamming the man in the bottom position from time to time keeps everybody on their toes and discourages butt scooting stupidity.

  2. #512
    Raycetpfl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
    You are very welcome. I respect Vox, but they clearly missed it. Still the majority of Islamic terrorist attacks on the US Homeland were actually carried out by Saudis, Egyptians and Pakistanis. None of which were hit by a travel ban. So the ban is of questionable usefulness.



    That is a fair point. I can agree with that.


    When? Prove to me that the royal house of Saud isn't just a whitewash on a backward theocracy. I think the best argument you could make is that they double dip.


    Well see my solution would be to allow all the immigrants and refugees in, but watch them like a hawk. As soon as they started acting like the asshats they were running away from, I would ship them straight back to the home they want to recreate within US borders. Personally I'm a big fan of liberal democracies, and I have an absolute phobia of theocracies. I find it absolutely nuts that the immigrants and refugees in Europe want to recreate the same crappy systems they fled in their adopted countries. It's like the battered wife that goes back to her abusive husband thinking it is going to be different this time. Admittedly I have a bit more patience with the Jewish and Christian nutters that want to set up theocracies, but that is because their own are so far in the past they don't remember how bad they were.
    Pretty solid points.

  3. #513

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
    Abdul Razak Ali Artan- Somali refugee- 2016 Ohio State University Attack.
    Sorry to nitpick, but Abdul Razak Ali Artan actually emigrated to the US from PAKISTAN. So, he'd have made it right through Trump's "security measure."

    He was a legal, permanent resident of the US at the time of the attack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
    Humanitarian catastrophe? Hyperbole much? A 90 day ban is hardly a humanitarian catastrophe.
    It depends on your perspective. It may not seem like a catastrophe to YOU, or anyone else safe at home.

    It's definitely one of the worst decisions made in decades against refugees since World War II. Practically all of these people are running AWAY from terror, not coming here to spread it.

    Yes, some of the people turned away from the US over the next 90 days will die, just like the Jews turned around in the 40's were intercepted, rounded up, and gassed upon their return to Europe.That's not hyperbole or exaggeration, it's a cold fact.
    Last edited by Pship Destroyer; 1/30/2017 12:19pm at .

  4. #514
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Tzadok View Post
    Isn't most of the Middle East and Africa former European colonies? Not sure I follow the distinction you are trying to make.
    most of the world is a former european colony lol

  5. #515
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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    I think that in the USA at least, you would have huge legal problems deporting "trouble makers" once they get any sort of permanent status.
    Laws can change.

    I can already imagine the cries of religious and racial discrimination from the ACLU et al..
    These orgs. time is over.

  6. #516
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    Laws can change.


    These orgs. time is over.

    Dealing with the present time, not future.

    It will be interesting to see how the law suits play out. All this outcry over the executive orders is the never-Trumpers taking advantage of anything they can to gum up the works, and attempt to shape narrative in their direction.
    Falling for Judo since 1980

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  7. #517

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    Frame this whole discussion thusly: if you're truly concerned about NATIONAL SECURITY, what do you think plays more into the hands of Islamic extremists?

    - Banning war refugees (along with visa holders and foreign tourists) from America's shores because you're afraid, or

    - embracing them with the liberty and freedom they seek?

    See, some brilliant folks have argued that by turning away and breaking apart families trying to escape extremism...you are basically feeding them to the extremists to die, or be converted. And there was ALREADY a substantial vetting system in place that was, last I checked...working properly. So, what did this ban get the US exactly, other than airport protests, yet another GOP party fracture, and bad press for the Trumpster?

    Two more GOP congressmen from my own state are calling out the travel ban as "bad". Why? Simple, they aren't ignoring the public outcry because want to hold onto their seats after Trump/Bannon are gone.

    Like I said, a lot of smart conservatives saw this writing on the wall and have been writing about it for years. But it's hard to get a REAL conservative message out with all the white nationalism and xenophobia Trump's chief advisor is encouraging. Hell, Andrew Breitbart's whole site is founded on the fact that the mainstream GOP has been failing conservatism for years. His solution was to burn the whole thing down while yelling and screaming at people who didn't agree with him. Anger, that's it... Now Bannon tells the entire US media establishment to "shut up", forgetting the First Amendment was put in place to protect the press from a demagogues like himself.

    See, in Bannon's world (and thusly Steve Spicer), you get your facts/news/reality from the President, not the national press designed to keep the President honest and in check. And in his world, you remove the top military commanders from the National Security Council because they might disagree with your political opinion. That's right, Trump just pulled another LEFT wing trick...replacing senior military advisors with a political czar.

    Even everyone's favorite "Lefty" Obama kept the national security infrastructure intact..

    It's almost like Trump wants to remove power from the government and spread it around his inner circle. Practically Stalinist, if you ask me.
    Last edited by Pship Destroyer; 1/30/2017 12:35pm at .

  8. #518
    BKR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pship Destroyer View Post
    Frame this whole discussion thusly: if you're truly concerned about NATIONAL SECURITY, what do you think plays more into the hands of Islamic extremists?

    - Banning war refugees (along with visa holders and foreign tourists) from America's shores because you're afraid, or

    - embracing them with the liberty and freedom they seek?

    See, some brilliant folks have argued that by turning away and breaking apart families trying to escape extremism...you are basically feeding them to the extremists to die, or be converted. And there was ALREADY a substantial vetting system in place that was, last I checked...working properly. So, what did this ban get the US exactly, other than airport protests, yet another GOP party fracture, and bad press for the Trumpster?

    Two more GOP congressmen from my own state are calling out the travel ban as "bad". Why? Simple, they aren't ignoring the public outcry because want to hold onto their seats after Trump/Bannon are gone.

    Like I said, a lot of smart conservatives saw this writing on the wall and have been writing about it for years. But it's hard to get a REAL conservative message out with all the white nationalism and xenophobia Trump's chief advisor is encouraging. Hell, Andrew Breitbart's whole site is founded on the fact that the mainstream GOP has been failing conservatism for years.

    His solution? Burn the whole thing down while yelling and screaming. Anger. Now Bannon tells the entire US media establishment to "shut up", forgetting the First Amendment was put in place to protect the press from a demagogues like himself.
    And he's got a first amendment right to tell them to shut up, doesn't he? Just like that sad neo-nazi guy who got punched for exercising his 1st amendment rights. And no, I'm not equating the two, either, other than that they both have first amendment rights.

    I think it's best to review the process, make improvements/adjustments if necessary. Then embrace them with "liberty" and "freedom" and all that jazz.
    Falling for Judo since 1980

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  9. #519

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    And he's got a first amendment right to tell them to shut up, doesn't he? Just like that sad neo-nazi guy who got punched for exercising his 1st amendment rights. And no, I'm not equating the two, either, other than that they both have first amendment rights.

    I think it's best to review the process, make improvements/adjustments if necessary. Then embrace them with "liberty" and "freedom" and all that jazz.
    Sure he's got the right to tell them whatever he wants.

    Does he have the right to intimidate the press with threats of force, with the backing of the President's office? That's what he wants (because before he was senior advisor, he built a huge brand on criticizing the US media). Did you know that's Bannon's chief claim to fame? Making a lot of money from online tabloid journalism?

    Just pray Trump doesn't start trying to really try going after the media via Congress..."libel laws" and what-not that he promised. Remember, Trump is not interested in democracy or maintaining the Constitution (he didn't give a **** about it prior to 2015). He's interested in brand recognition and eliminating risks to his reputation.

    Remember, the media is now the "opposition party" to Trump's presidency. That's an OFFICIAL statement. So, be afraid that for the first time in history, the sitting President is going on the attack against something the Founders tried to preserve as much as possible, knowing that a future president might indeed try to "infringe" on the rights of the press, in opposition to the best interests of the people of the United States.
    Last edited by Pship Destroyer; 1/30/2017 12:42pm at .

  10. #520
    BackFistMonkey's Avatar
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    Trumps first Military actions kills 30 civilians including 10 women and children. Good news is that they got 14 bad guys ... or so says the talking heads.
    30/14 ... huh ... roughly twice as many civilians killed as "bad guys".
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7553121.html
    I am 100% sure this is not going to play well with rational people. Of course civilians have been killed before, that in itself is nothing new. It is the environment in which it is happening.

    Those of you who have served and been in the **** or are familiar with modern military surgical strikes, is it usual to kill twice as many civilians as baddies?
    Quote Originally Posted by ghost55 View Post
    Violence is pretty uncommon in clubs in this area, and the dude didn't seem particularly hostile up until the moment he slapped me.
    I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.
    BILL HICKS,
    1961-1994

    Quote Originally Posted by WFMurphyPhD View Post
    Slamming the man in the bottom position from time to time keeps everybody on their toes and discourages butt scooting stupidity.

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