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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by slamdunc View Post
    Wouldn't 'REAL' Jeet Kune Do be whatever works for the individual practicing it? I always thought the premise was using what works (for you) eliminating whatever doesn't.
    Tough to say. JKD Concepts is supposed to be taught that way. I think a lot of what people teach as JKD is better classified as Jun Fan G/Kung Fu. Following Lee's techniques, rather than the philosophy laid out in the Tao of JKD.

  2. #22
    Permalost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slamdunc View Post
    Wouldn't 'REAL' Jeet Kune Do be whatever works for the individual practicing it? I always thought the premise was using what works (for you) eliminating whatever doesn't.
    Bad JKD usually forgets the "eliminating whatever doesn't" part.

    The club from this thread, for example.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    Bad JKD usually forgets the "eliminating whatever doesn't" part.

    The club from this thread, for example.
    This.

    In fact even good JKD does as such. A legit Jun Fan JKD place from the likes of Ted Wong etc still arguably places an unnecessary degree of focus on WC trapping and contains many of the lower percentage, crappy elements of said art. Hell, even a standard Inosanto influenced JKD concepts school, despite adding MT and Bjj aspects to the curriculum , has this problem. It's become an integral part of the JKD identity alongside the Jun Fan Kickboxing material.

    The whole image of JKD to the public is, as a result, inherently tied to Bruce Lee and, by extension, WC. Therefore it is largely sold on that aspect- even those in the JKD community who are conscious of this fault ignore it because of tradition and, partly, income/marketing opportunities. This is why Matt Thornton's split from JKD concepts to form Functional JKD-before SBG became an MMA gym- was so controversial.

    It is not that uncommon to find a solid JKD place, but there is an argument that, in a lot of cases, you will have to practice some crap to get to the good stuff. You aren't going to become a particularly well rounded grappler from it either.
    Last edited by Aka-Tora; 1/21/2017 6:31am at .

  4. #24

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    Hey!! Those scammers are make a Fake Wing Chun club too!! I'll make the thread about them later!!

  5. #25
    Michael Tzadok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slamdunc View Post
    Wouldn't 'REAL' Jeet Kune Do be whatever works for the individual practicing it? I always thought the premise was using what works (for you) eliminating whatever doesn't.
    If that were the case, wouldn't JKD just be MMA at this point? I mean sure there are flavors of MMA, but by and large MMA has proven to be the most effective. Just a thought.
    Don't rely on theory if your life is at stake.

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by slamdunc View Post
    Wouldn't 'REAL' Jeet Kune Do be whatever works for the individual practicing it? I always thought the premise was using what works (for you) eliminating whatever doesn't.
    But how do you teach whatever works for the single student? I mean, I go to the gym and the instructor says "just do whatever suits you"?

    I think that the idea works as a rebuke of the excessively rigid, kata based method of most TMA, but it can't work 100% in pratice.

  7. #27
    BackFistMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMR View Post
    But how do you teach whatever works for the single student? I mean, I go to the gym and the instructor says "just do whatever suits you"?

    I think that the idea works as a rebuke of the excessively rigid, kata based method of most TMA, but it can't work 100% in pratice.
    I think it would involve constant testing and nurturing of old and new techniques. It only works under constant practice and objective assessment.

    It CANNOT work with kata and faith based techniques systems, there is no testing, thus no pruning and no additions in TMAs. Some TMA take a core set of unchanging techniques and constantly pressure test and then players learn to work the art (like KK, TKD, Boxing, BJJ, Judo).

    Only modern MMA and the Dog Brothers have really fully embraced the whole JKD free form do what works approach, and it is 100% practice.
    Quote Originally Posted by ghost55 View Post
    Violence is pretty uncommon in clubs in this area, and the dude didn't seem particularly hostile up until the moment he slapped me.
    I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WFMurphyPhD View Post
    Slamming the man in the bottom position from time to time keeps everybody on their toes and discourages butt scooting stupidity.

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by BackFistMonkey View Post
    Only modern MMA and the Dog Brothers have really fully embraced the whole JKD free form do what works approach, and it is 100% practice.
    I think that there is a difference between MMA and JKD: MMA is a ruleset, whereas JKD is supposed to be an art and doesn't have a specific ruleset.

    People from various martial arts fought in MMA and in time, so to speak organically, a winning MMA style developed. We call this style MMA but in reality, MMA is the rules, not the style.

    On the other hand, if we take Judo as an example, Judo starts with a set of techniques and the rules are created around the techniques, so that when praticed Judo becomes too different from "ideal" Judo there is a sort of crisis (hence the continuous changes in the rules). So Judo is a martial art first, and we call "Judo" the rules too but it is a different thing.

    The problem of JKD in my opinion is that it starts as a martial art, not as a set of rules, but this makes impossible the kind of open mindedness that Lee proposed. Suppose that someone discovers that what is best for him is BJJ, could this guy say that BJJ is his JKD? In my opinion this wouldn't make sense, whereas someone who does shotokan and competes in a MMA tournament could well say that he is doing MMA.

  9. #29
    BackFistMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMR View Post
    I think that there is a difference between MMA and JKD: MMA is a ruleset, whereas JKD is supposed to be an art and doesn't have a specific ruleset.

    People from various martial arts fought in MMA and in time, so to speak organically, a winning MMA style developed. We call this style MMA but in reality, MMA is the rules, not the style.

    On the other hand, if we take Judo as an example, Judo starts with a set of techniques and the rules are created around the techniques, so that when praticed Judo becomes too different from "ideal" Judo there is a sort of crisis (hence the continuous changes in the rules). So Judo is a martial art first, and we call "Judo" the rules too but it is a different thing.

    The problem of JKD in my opinion is that it starts as a martial art, not as a set of rules, but this makes impossible the kind of open mindedness that Lee proposed. Suppose that someone discovers that what is best for him is BJJ, could this guy say that BJJ is his JKD? In my opinion this wouldn't make sense, whereas someone who does shotokan and competes in a MMA tournament could well say that he is doing MMA.
    JKD is horseshit without constant pressure testing in realistic rulesets.

    MMA is more JKD than most JKD yo.
    Quote Originally Posted by ghost55 View Post
    Violence is pretty uncommon in clubs in this area, and the dude didn't seem particularly hostile up until the moment he slapped me.
    I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.
    BILL HICKS,
    1961-1994

    Quote Originally Posted by WFMurphyPhD View Post
    Slamming the man in the bottom position from time to time keeps everybody on their toes and discourages butt scooting stupidity.

  10. #30
    Michael Tzadok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterMR View Post
    I think that there is a difference between MMA and JKD: MMA is a ruleset, whereas JKD is supposed to be an art and doesn't have a specific ruleset.

    People from various martial arts fought in MMA and in time, so to speak organically, a winning MMA style developed. We call this style MMA but in reality, MMA is the rules, not the style.

    On the other hand, if we take Judo as an example, Judo starts with a set of techniques and the rules are created around the techniques, so that when praticed Judo becomes too different from "ideal" Judo there is a sort of crisis (hence the continuous changes in the rules). So Judo is a martial art first, and we call "Judo" the rules too but it is a different thing.

    The problem of JKD in my opinion is that it starts as a martial art, not as a set of rules, but this makes impossible the kind of open mindedness that Lee proposed. Suppose that someone discovers that what is best for him is BJJ, could this guy say that BJJ is his JKD? In my opinion this wouldn't make sense, whereas someone who does shotokan and competes in a MMA tournament could well say that he is doing MMA.
    I thought JKD was supposed to be a style absent of style, wherein the individual worked out what works best for them. You see this in more conceptually based martial arts like wrestling and BJJ wherein individuals develop a highly personalized style having selected, deselected and modified techniques as best befits their own personal attributes. You don't see it as much in Judo which is much more procedural in its training methods.

    As far as MMA being a rule set... well any martial art that competes is like that. Take Judo, as that was your initial example. How many people still seriously train the striking that Kano first included in the art? How many people who started training after 2010 can shoot a single or double leg? I have a friend and fellow BJJer who was part of the Israeli national team for Judo, he was still young enough when the no leg grab rule went into effect that there are sufficient training scars that his attempts at singles and doubles are **** enough to be easily defended by anyone with a modicum of decent take down defense.

    Now if you wanted the full Tao of JKD evolution of training, and a good way of testing it, you would enter as many different competitions as possible, from MMA fights to UWW Gi and NoGi grappling events, to ADCC and IBJJF, to Combat Sambo events. As well as training as liberally as your training gear will allow to be done safely, trying to eliminate as many training scars as possible.
    Don't rely on theory if your life is at stake.

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