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  1. 9chambers

    Guest

    Posted On:
    5/18/2004 10:59am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The shoe thing .. well, it's harder to cut through three inches of rubber than it is to cut through your flesh so a shoe could be used as a shield over one hand. That limits your potential to grab him though. I was just pointing out that anything could be used as a weapon -- even a shoe. I'd much rather leave my shoes on so I'd be ready to run or kick if I needed too. Thinking about it .. shoes might be a pretty bad idea. I guess some things aren't better than nothing. Using your shoe isn't a really good idea.

    As for the rock, hey if you are a mass murderer then a rock might not scare you away -- but if you just want my 20 bucks then it might not be worth it to risk getting a concussion so you can get 20 dollars from me instead of the next person.

    A little rock might not do much damage but a rock the size of a walnut could seriously injure someone if it hit them in the face. I don't know if you've ever been beaned in the head with a baseball but it makes chasing someone more difficult than it is when you haven't been beaned in the head.

    I'm not saying it is a good weapon, it's just one of the few things you might find near a parking lot. You might find a bottle or a stick if you are lucky or maybe a rock. What else is there? A dead bird, maybe? .. Anyway, if you have a choice between standing there with nothing or standing there with a rock then why not opt for being able to use the rock in addition to your hands? You can always drop the rock if it gets in the way. You can always not pick up the rock at all if you don't have time. If the rock is there then why not use it? Rocks have been used as weapons for centuries - hurled by hand or in slings or whatever. A bullet is pretty much just a really fast rock being thrown at you.

    I don't think this thread was supposed to be about makeshift weapons anyway. Rock or not, you are still going to have to get that knife away from him.
    Last edited by 9chambers; 5/18/2004 11:16am at .
  2. Student is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/18/2004 11:38am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ronin69 - I disagree with you on training with a live blade. I think you will get alot more out of using a training blade and good equipment (like a chest protector...).

    If someone were to train with a live blade, I don't believe their training partner would ever attack with the aggresiveness that would be required to simulate a real knife attack - a brutal one where the person with the knife is really trying to kill you.

    I think in order to get skilled at defending against a knife attack you have to make your drills as close to what a knife fight would really be like. I think the type of energy invloved, if a live blade were used, would most likley kill the defender long before they ever aquired any degree of skill. I still don't believe that even if you did do this type of training, that your training partner will ever really try to kill you with the live blade - which means they will start to attack you in a way that no one really attacking with a knife would do - which defeats the purpose of training.

    Give me your thoughts on this - this has just been my opinion.


    As for someones comment on using a defense where you control the non-knife weilding arm - I think that will get you killed - fast. I think the goal always has to be to control the arm with the knife, and get to it as quickly as possible (this assumes you had no chance to get away - which is your first option if possible).

    The simple test with all knife defense is to give a training blade to someone and tell them to really try and cut you up bad. Make sure they are not trying to make you look good, or boost your ego. It's best to find someone who really wants to prove you wrong, that your technique doesn't work. Try controlling the arm that doesn't have the knife - and watch how many times you get stabbed if your attacker is really committed in his goal of cutting you up.

    The attacker should have no rules - keep stabbing until your both clear either they got neutralized - or you got killed.
  3. Spunky is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/18/2004 3:20pm


     Style: Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As for someones comment on using a defense where you control the non-knife weilding arm - I think that will get you killed - fast. I think the goal always has to be to control the arm with the knife, and get to it as quickly as possible (this assumes you had no chance to get away - which is your first option if possible).
    The point is that all body parts are connected (you know how the song goes :)) and you can control the knife hand through the other arm. It's called a skeleton. That and position, position, position. It might not be my primary reaction mind you, I'm just throwing a wrench in with this.
  4. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/18/2004 3:27pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The only reason I mention a "live blade" is the initimidation factor od the real thing, and note that I make it very clear that it is a very ADVANCED step to take.
    And that is an understatement.

    As for controling the "non-armed" limb...
    The immediate danger is the edge weapon, THAT is your priority, it MUST be neutralised, after that, its really about to your individual system.
    Like I said, some advocate to "kill the body" others "defang the snake", a combination would be best.
  5. Spunky is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/18/2004 3:34pm


     Style: Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    True true. Getting to the position to do so would necessitate getting around the immediate threat of the knife, anyway.
  6. nasty_totoro is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/18/2004 5:41pm


     Style: sushi-do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by Spunky
    you can control the knife hand through the other arm.
    that's going to get you killed ...
    totoro-san ... world sushi munching champion ...

  7. Student is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/18/2004 6:33pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by Spunky
    The point is that all body parts are connected (you know how the song goes :)) and you can control the knife hand through the other arm. It's called a skeleton. That and position, position, position. It might not be my primary reaction mind you, I'm just throwing a wrench in with this.
    I know what you were saying - that's why I said grab a partner who is really trying to kill you (with a training blade). If you can consistently control the knife by using the non knife-weilding arm then add it to your knife defense strategy.

    I have tried it - and the conclusion I came to was it sounds good in theory, but will get you killed (at least it would have got me killed).

    The only way I have found that cosistently keeps me from being hacked, poked and slashed over and over is to directly take control of the arm that is holding the knife - the sooner the better.

    Don't take my word for it - try it, over and over. If it works for you then that's great.
    Last edited by Student; 5/18/2004 6:39pm at .
  8. Student is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/18/2004 6:38pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by ronin69
    The only reason I mention a "live blade" is the initimidation factor od the real thing, and note that I make it very clear that it is a very ADVANCED step to take.
    And that is an understatement.
    Ronin - I still don't think you will get that same intimidation that you are looking for because you know your training partner is not really trying to kill you.

    Don't get me wrong - I see what you are getting at - a piece of rubber, or a wooden dowel... does not elicit the same fear as a piece of sharpened steel that can end your life will.

    I still think training with a live blade will make you worse at defending against a true knife attack because the attacker will not be attacking realistically with it (in order to keep from killing you).

    It's like working with a person who throws punches at you, but they worry about hitting you so they either pull them just a little short, or shoot them to the sides of your face. This does not make you a better fighter, but in fact will make you a worse fighter because you develop skills in dealing with something that will not ever happen.
  9. grimel is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/19/2004 8:34pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Where to start?

    Clothing = belt, bandana, shirt used as a flexible weapon (snap at the eyes, use the flinch).

    Live blade - uh, no. It's a stunt and a bad one. If you want something for the adrenal rush. Goggles and an aluminum trainer. Busted ribs and teeth should be enough to keep you rushed for days.

    FMA rule don't control the arm? Yes and no. Not control in the classic sense. It takes too much time and precision. Control it off your body as you close (learn to "loop" the parry into a control if you must) and here's the important part - SMASH THE DAYLIGHTS out of the knife weilder's throat/neck/chin. Rattle the brain pan and rattle it good. That will give you the "second" it takes to control the knife arm long enough to break it. Don't try a grab if a hand parry will work. Dont' try a hand parry if a forearm parry will work. Don't monkey around trying to look good. Every single time he attempts a stab your odds start dropping - rapidlly!

    How to test your defense - forget the rubber knifes and such crap. Get a THIN magazine and roll it up into a cylinder - tape the ends and middle so it won't unwrap. Now, nobody will be afraid to not give 100% in the stabbing (it will only take 75% to make the point). Have your attacker commence stabbing your gut repeatedly in any manner he chooses. When your ribs have had enough try what I suggested.

    Here's the nasty secrete - even under the best of conditions you'll only win 75% of the time under more realistic conditions you lose >50% of the time.
  10. The Crack Taoist is offline

    I got an axe to grind

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    Posted On:
    5/20/2004 1:55pm

    supporting member
     Style: thai.kali.no-gi.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Re: Oh Oh, it's a knife...

    Originally posted by ronin69

    I donít care how you do it, get out of the way of the fucking blade !!!!!!
    ::snip::
    Suggestion #2:
    Whatever art you choose to apply to this training, do NOT give the attacker ALL the time and ALL the opportunities he needs to stab you.
    Do NOT step back unless caught be surprise, if you step back, you are giving him ANOTHER chance to stab you, how many do you think he needs ?
    Ronin..
    Er.. you are not being especially consistent here...
    Gotta call you on this on.
    If I have to fight.. I open the range.
    I open the range to run away, if I can't run away.. then
    I stay back. I *know* my timing and positioning skills
    are WAY better than your average crazy.
    So my trained reflex is yes.. get out of the way.
    But when you say not to give them all the time and all the
    opportunties you are setting up a straw man. No one
    does this, except when you are being tricky!
    I want him to come to me, I want him to come forward.
    I will cut and retreat all fucking day long.
    People who say "don't step back" maybe don't know
    how to attack as they run away eh?
    As far as giving him another chance.. his movement
    is what exposes him.. if we both run away.. there is no
    fight. Good.
    If we both charge, we both will likely die.
    If he charges in, and I retreat (attacking as I do so)
    then I have a chance to live, and many chances to
    destroy the threat. Every time he attacks he must come
    "out of his shell" and that's when he's vunerable.
    Cut and fade out. One goes inside only when there is
    nowhere left to retreat, or you have destroyed the lion's
    share of the danger and it's time to go in for the kill.
    Ideally you should run away until it's time to "murder
    the bastard" (figure of speech of course).
    Oh and the FMA hubud-lubud drills described earlier are
    neat training, and build good reflexes.. but they are
    a good way to die in a real fight. Gunting and scissoring
    movements inserted into the hubud format are WAY
    more workable.
    let's talk about why fat-fu shall we?
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