Oh Oh, it's a knife...

9chambers · Posted On: 3/24/2005 12:37am

Reikon,

Okay, I am watching that video now and here are my thoughts.

Scene 1.

Right off the bat you can see that he is saying you should never grab the guys wrist and just hold it there (like I said earlier) which is a pretty good general rule. If you grab a wrist you should be pulling it or using it to pull yourself in for a strike or something. Just holding it there allows him to move instead of you. Instead you should be using that grab for leverage as you step in and strike. Keep moving.

In this case he is saying not to hold it against the body as you strike. He says that a lot of instructors advocate this but he doesn't because you can just step back and pull the knife free. Of course, he ignores the fact that the guy can step in right along with you or tug your arm across so you can't step back or use your step back to pull himself right into you with a strike.

Also, by the time he stepped back, that strike would have hit him in the face, if not then the next one would have. He didn't even guard his face. Who is going to strike you from a fixed position anyway? You always move forward on a strike. Also, the guy can release his grab on the knife and use that fist to start his punch combo to the face, then attack the knife hand again or kick the guy in the stomach and run away.

Also, why wouldn't the guy grab it with the same-side arm so he can keep his body outside or use both hands at the beggining of the tug and shoot one in with the punch? It seems odd that he has the attacker so upright with his knees locked too. It's almost like these guys have not trained in any stiking arts. Why not put the attacker in some sort of reasonable stance?

Of course, if the knife fighter is skilled he should know all that already and have a back up plan. What I think would most likely happen in this instance:

A. If the knife fighter is slower, he will get punched in the face, then chopped in the neck and punched in the face again -- at which point he will be easily dissarmed or knocked silly enough to drop the knife.

B. If the puncher is slower, the knife fighter will step back, think about stabbing but then have to step back again to avoid the strike. They will then reset with no advantage gained.

C. If the striker is a dimwit, with wooden feet, this might actually work on him and he might almost get stabbed before shoving the guy back and yelling "kiiiiiaaaaaaaaiaaa!"

Scene 2.

Now, he lets the guy grab his wrist with both hands. He explains that you could just reach in with your other hand and grab the knife out of the hand that the guy is grabbing with both of his hands and stab him. ..... This is ... is this guy serious?

If the guy has your arm with both hands, then he has fixed the position of your knife so he can strike or he is going to pull you off balance. In all honesty, if he sees you reaching to switch the knife into the other hand then he is going to either let go and back off or blast you in the face. He didn't turn blind when he grabbed you. Also, having your hand like that he is in a great position to kick your shin or your groin, then go for a dissarm. He didn't lose the ability to kick or think just because he grabbed you.

Also, the guy will be crouched, not upright offering you his body to stab. This scene is filled with wishful thinking on many levels. The most obvious being the idea that you wouldn't drop the knife while trying to switch hands.

Scene 3.

Now, he suggest that you could just turn out of it if you don't want to switch hands. Yea.. you could also do a back flip and throw a smoke bomb.. still, your face is wide open for strikes. Everything I said for scene 2 would still apply. Also, all you have to do is step right around with him to prevent him from escaping when he steps back. You can even use his arm like a rope to help you step around faster.

This knife instructor's stance should be lower and he should be pulling harder. I am guessing he would in a real fight but still .. you fight how you train.

Then he advocates an arm drag to help you pull free. He'd have to be really fast just to get that to work ss an escape eithout getting punched. There's no chance he could get the counter stab though. He'd be punched or elbowed in the face by then. He'd at least have to avoid the punch and the guy would get away. Also, the guy could shove him away and take off looking for a stick. His stance is too upright, he could get shoved over or into a wall.By the time he rolls and gets up the other guy would be gone or right on top of him.

Scene 4.

I like this one. He's right about still being in the line of fire if you duck straight down.

Conclusion.

I watched this whole video even though I have a dial-up connection because I really wanted to see some expert stuff. I was kinda disapointed that I wasted my time on it. I know the stuff I've said to do on here has been crazy thus far but the stuff he is teaching on that video is absolutely useless. Wild stabbing would be more effective.

Of course, the guy couldn't grab your wrist at all if you used the grip with the blade facing down and had it tight .. so .. yea.

Jolly,

>trying to grab a wrist when someone has a knife is suicide.

So what do you suggest then? Aside from running .. because that isn't always an option. Because, I've never seen a technique that worked in sparring against a knife that didn't involve grabbing the arm at some point. Maybe a lucky shove or kick. The reality is that nothing works well against a knife. I think grabs work better than nothing though. You can't just stand there holding him though. Grab/punch, grab/throw, grab/kick, something. Don't just stand there and die.

>You can try (and should) control his arm, but the wrist is almost
>impossible to control without getting cut badly.

That would still put you ahead of the guy that just stood back against a wall until he got stabbed in the freaking liver. :P

>you can´t assume that he/she doesn´t know how to use it.

Right. All you can do is try stuff out in sparring and pick the techniques that work best with your natural abilities and skills. That and offer him money.

**Reikon** · Posted On: 3/24/2005 12:53am

Originally Posted by 9chambers

Reikon,

Okay, I am watching that video now and here are my thoughts.

Scene 1.

Right off the bat you can see that he is saying you should never grab the guys wrist and just hold it there (like I said earlier) which is a pretty good general rule. If you grab a wrist you should be pulling it or using it to pull yourself in for a strike. Just holding it there allows him to move instead of you. Instead you should be using that grab for leverage as you step in and strike.

In this case he is saying not to hold it against the body as you strike. He says that a lot of instructors advocate this but he doesn't because you can just step back and pull the knife free. Of course, he ignores the fact that the guy can step in right along with you or tug your arm across and use your step back to pull himself right into you with that strike.

Also, by the time he stepped back, that strike would have hit him in the face. He didn't even guard his face. Who is going to strike you from a fixed position anyway. You always move forward on a strike. Alsom the guy can release his grab on the knife and use that fist to start a one-two combo to the face, then attack the knife hand again or kick the guy in the stomach and run away.

Also, why wouldn't the guy grab it with the same-side arm so he can keep his body more clear or use both hands at the beggining of the tug and shoot one in with the punch? It seems odd that he has the attacker is so upright with his knees locked. It's almost like these guys have never trained in a stiking art.

Of course, if the knife fighter is skilled he should know all that already and have a back up plan. What I think would most likely happen in this instance:

A. If the knife fighter is slower, he will get punched in the face, then chopped in the neck and punched in the face again -- at which point he will be easily dissarmed.

B. If the puncher is slower, the knife fighter will step back, think about stabbing but then have to step back again to avoid the strike. They will reset.

C. If the striker is a dimwit, with wooden feet, this might actually work.

Scene 2.

Now, he lets the guy grab his wrist with both hands. He explains that you could just reach in with your other hand and grab the knife out of the hand that the guy is grabbing with both of his hands and stab him. ..... This is ... is this guy serious?

If the guy has your arm with both hands, then he has fixed the position of your knife so he can trike or he is going to pull you off balance. In all honesty, if he sees you reaching to switch the knife into the other hand then he is going to either let go or blast you in the face. He didn't turn blind when he grabbed you. Also, having your hand like that he is in a great position to kick your shin, then your groin, then dissarm. He didn't lose the ability to kick.

Also, the guy will be crouched, not upright offering you his body to stab. This scene is filled with wishful thinking on many levels. The most obvious being the idea that you wouldn't drop the knife while trying to switch hands.

Scene 3.

Now, he siggest that you could just turn out of it if you don't want to switch hands. Yea.. you could also do a back flip and throw a smoke bomb.. still, your face is wide open for strikes. Everything I said for scene 2 would still be in effect. Also, all you have to do is step right around with him to prevent him from escaping.

This knife instructor's stance should be lower and he should be pulling harder. I am guessing he would in a real fight but still .. you fight how you train.

Then he advocates an arm drag to help you pull free. He'd have to be really fast just to get that to work s an escape. There's no chance he could get the counter stab though. He'd be punched or elbowed in the face by then. He'd at least have to avoid the punch and the guy would get away. Also, the guy could shove him away and take off looking for a stick. His stance is too upright.

Scene 4.

I like this one. He's right about still being in the line of fire if you duck straight down.

Conclusion.

I watched this whole video even though I have a dial-up connection because I really wanted to see some expert stuff. I was kinda disapointed that I wasted my time on it. I know the stuff I've said to do on here has been crazy thus far but the stuff he is teaching on that video is absolutely useless. Wild stabbing would be more effective.

Of course, the guy couldn't grab your wrist at all if you used the grip with the blade facing down and had it tight .. so .. yea. Whatever.

I never said to expect anything. I said it was a random Kali clip about wrist grabbing, which it is.

You forget one thing: You can hit the guy and hurt him, but he has something that can easily kill you.

Scene 1: I would've done it a bit differently. I agree that he could've easily followed.

Scene 2: No he's serious. Pulling him around doesn't change anything...He can easily regain his balance, and pulling him towards you only makes his job of stabbing you that much easier. Kicking him? Like I said, you're kicking him, he's putting a knife in your stomach. As for letting go with one hand, it defeats the purpose of the two on one baseball bat grip, and makes it that much easier for him to pull the knife hand free and do what he pleases.

The other stuff...I'm not so sure about...I'd have to agree with you.

9chambers · Posted On: 3/24/2005 1:12am

Man, the kali guys are going to yell at us ..

>You forget one thing: You can hit the guy and
>hurt him, but he has something that can easily
>kill you.

Yea, that's why you have to do something aggressive. Your choices are limited to strike and grab. I like to think those things can work together or that they can both be incorporated. If you don't feel comfortable grabbing, don't do it. I look at a grab as a stepping stone. I'd grab and let go if it got me close enough to strike and trapped his arm long enough for me to get that strike in there to a good target. Letting go wouldn't "defeat the purpose" if I got my strikes in and hurt him.

Also, it is harder to stab someone when you are trying to avoid punches thrown at your head than it is if he is just standing there.

>He can easily regain his balance

My point is, so can you. He seems to ignore the idea that you can pull back when he pulls or step closer and then pull again. They seem to ignore that in the video -- maybe they cover that in the next one.

>and pulling him towards you only makes his
>job of stabbing you that much easier.

Not if you retain your grip and then step back again pulling him off balance.

>Kicking him? Like I said, you're kicking him, he's
>putting a knife in your stomach.

Not if you still have a hold of his wrist. You hold on, pull his arm and kick his shin or groin .. kind of like this [see frames 3 and 4 in picture] only with a low kick instead .. your lead leg to his shin/knee or rear leg to the groin or whatever ...

>As for letting go with one hand, it defeats the
>purpose of the two on one baseball bat grip,
>and makes it that much easier for him to
>pull the knife hand free and do what he
>pleases.

No it doesn't because you are punching him in the face. You can always renew your grip after the punch or .. instead of punching the face, you can yank his arm then let go with one hand and punch his inside wrist with it to disarm. I'm just saying, you are in range to attack so he isn't safe either. You aren't going to be fixated on the knife and forget the rest of his body. He can kill you, yea. Not if you beat him selseless first.

Anyway, .. odds are you will die. Might as well die trying. Nobody else seems to be posting any ideas on what to do. I thought I'd take a crack at it.

**Reikon** · Posted On: 3/24/2005 1:35am

Originally Posted by 9chambers

Man, the kali guys are going to yell at us ..

I am a Kali guy (n00b one though).

Yea, that's why you have to do something aggressive. Your choices are limited to strike and grab.

I prefer run....

I like to think those things can work together or that they can both be incorporated. If you don't feel comfortable grabbing, don't do it. I look at a grab as a stepping stone. I'd grab and let go if it got me close enough to strike and trapped his arm long enough for me to get that strike in there to a good target. Letting go wouldn't "defeat the purpose" if I got my strikes in and hurt him.

And if he didn't care if you hit him and he just wanted to kill you?

Also, it is harder to stab someone when you are trying to avoid punches thrown at your head than it is if he is just standing there.

View above.

My point is, so can you. He seems to ignore the idea that you can pull back when he pulls or step closer and then pull again. They seem to ignore that in the video -- maybe they cover that in the next one.

I agreed with you on the whole tug-o-war thing.
What I didn't agree with, was you're disagreement in switching knife hands.

Not if you retain your grip and then step back again pulling him off balance.

Eventually you're going to run out of space to back up and pull, or he's gonna get pissed and tackle you...with a knife.

Not if you still have a hold of his wrist. You hold on, pull his arm and kick his shin or groin .. kind of like this only with a low kick instead .. your lead leg to his shin/knee or rear leg to the groin or whatever ...

What stops him from moving, kicking back, or pulling another knife?

No it doesn't because you are punching him in the face. You can always renew your grip after the punch or .. instead of punching the face, you can yank his arm then let go with one hand and punch his inside wrist with it to dissarm. I'm just saying, you are in range to attack so he isn't safe either. You aren't going to be fixated on the knife and forget the rest of his body. He can kill you, yea. Not if you beat him selseless first.

Anyway, .. odds are you will die. Might as well die trying. Nobody else seems to be posting any ideas on what to do. I thought I'd take a crack at it.

Punching someone in the face doesn't stop them from moving. If you fixate on the body and forget the knife, you die. The only thing that makes this a life or death struggle right now is the knife.

9chambers · Posted On: 3/24/2005 2:18am

>I prefer run....

If that were always an option, martial arts wouldn't exist.

>And if he didn't care if you hit him and
>he just wanted to kill you?

Someone with a knife is not stronger than someone without a knife. If strikes won't keep him from stabbing you then they won't keep a boxer from punching you to death. What I am saying is, when you punch a knife expert, doth he not bleed? How is he going to stab you when he can't see or even stand up straight because he just got blasted in the face and another fist is headed right for him?

If a knife expert can just run in with pure offense and no defence and just brush off strikes left and right then why do strikes work on unarmed people? Are knife experts somehow more able to take a punches because of the knife in their hand? Explain how they can just get hit and not worry about it. How does that happen? Why don't they have to raise their hands and parry when punches are thrown? How is it they can dive in there and stab you instead of ducking or dodging away from the punch. Punches just bounce off of their heads? They are able to duck under them better than regular unarmed people? What? ... Do they rely on your fear of the knife so much that they just let defense fly out the window or do they have to evade strikes like the rest of us?

>was you're disagreement in switching knife hands.

Switching knife hands during a fight is always ill advised. There is always a chance you could drop the knife -- especially when he controls your knife hand. A well timed yank in the middle of your switch could send the knife flying. I would never do that. He should have punched the attacker's arms instead and pulled with his knife hand. That would have been far less risky. Even if you do switch hands, what's to stop him from grabbing that hand -- switching to it? It's right next to the one he has already.

>What stops him from moving, kicking back, or pulling another knife?

That's a good point. "What's to stop me from doing those things?" x [infinity]

The thing is, he has control of your knife/arm. That puts you guys at more of an even playing field than him not having control of it. That's all I'm saying.

>Punching someone in the face doesn't stop them from moving.

It does stop them from moving from the point you hit their face until the point they regain their senses. That split second is enough time to hit them again or get a good grip for a disarm. Then you have the knife and .. whatever super power comes along with it that allows you to roll punches off like a greased pig.

>If you fixate on the body and forget the knife, you die.

It can also be said that if you fixate on the knife and forget the body, you die. All you have to do is hurt him bad enough -- and the knife is not able to hurt you. The knife can't hurt you if the man is knocked out or unable to stand up. If he is severely hurt by a strike/kick to the groin, neck, knee, head -- you will have an easier time getting that knife. You might even be able to do some classic wrist lock throws once you've made him see stars. Heck, if you are lucky you might knock him out. Whatever happens -- you are going to be better off than when he was at full capacity. That's my point. Stike, keep striking, do whatever it takes.

It's better than just running around the room weeping anyway.

**Reikon** · Posted On: 3/24/2005 2:29am

If that were always an option, martial arts wouldn't exist.

Using martial arts can make it an option.

Someone with a knife is not stronger than someone without a knife. If strikes won't keep him from stabbing you then they won't keep a boxer from punching you to death. What I am saying is, when you punch a knife expert, doth he not bleed? How is he going to stab you when he can't see or even stand up straight because he just got blasted in the face and another fist is headed right for him?

If it would effect him enough that he could just run in with pure offense and no defence and just brush off strikes then why do strikes work on unarmed people? Are knife experts somehow more able to take a punch because of the knife in their hand? Explain how they can just get hit and not worried about it. How does that happen?

Simple as this: The knife. You hit him 1 or 2 times, good job. He stabbed you 3 or 4. Guess who's laying on the ground dying?

Switching knife hands during a fight is always ill advised. There is always a chance you could drop the knife -- especially when he controls your knife hand. A well timed yank in the middle of your switch could send the knife flying. I would never do that. He should have punched the attacker's arms instead and pulled with his knife hand. That would have been far less risky. Even if you do switch hands, what's to stop him from grabbing that hand -- switching to it? It's right next to the one he has already.

If he's punching you in the face (with his free hand) when you try and then stabbing at you again? It's only risky if you have the ability to hit his hand...when you're completely focused on one hand, tying up both arms, he can switch and stab you before you can react fast enough to hit his hand.

That's a good point. "What's to stop me from doing those things?" x [infinity]

The thing is, he has control of your knife/arm. That puts you guys at more of an even playing field than him not having control of it. That's all I'm saying.

Not really. Both his hands are tied up, the knifer has a free one.

It does stop them from moving from the point you hit their face until the point they regain their senses. That split second is enough time to hit them again or get a good grip for a disarm. Then you have the knife and .. whatever super power comes along with it that allows you to roll punches off like a greased pig.

Yeah..I'm sure stabbing victims never fought back.

It can also be said that if you fixate on the knife and forget the body, you die. All you have to do is hurt him bad enough -- and the knife is not able to hurt you. The knife can't hurt you if the man is knocked out or unable to stand up. If he is severely hurt by a strike/kick to the groin, neck, knee, head -- you will have an easier time getting that knife. You might even be able to do some classic wrist lock throws once you've made him see stars. Heck, if you are lucky you might knock him out. Whatever happens -- you are going to be better off than when he was at full capacity. That's my point. Stike, keep striking, do whatever it takes.

It's better than just running around the room weeping anyway.

I agree. I'm just saying don't forget the knife or lose track of it.

**Reikon** · Posted On: 3/24/2005 2:46am

Anyway, I think the point we're getting at here is do what ever you can to control the knife, and then whatever you can to make him drop it...yes?

9chambers · Posted On: 3/24/2005 2:53am

>You hit him 1 or 2 times, good job.

The whole art of boxing is about tiring a guy out until he lowers his defenses enough that you can get that one strike or combo in that knocks him out. It's never a hundred punches that knock a guy out -- it's always one punch. The first 99 punches were just you working your way in for that one punch. People don't get knocked out gradually. It's one good solid hit that he didn't dodge because he was too tired or too slow or outsmarted.

When you don't have gloves on and you can grab the dude and hold him still, your chances of getting those punches in fast increase a lot. In other words, 1 or 2 times is enough if they are solid hits. A lot of UFC matches have ended after one or two punches -- sometimes at the beggining of the match, sometimes after a lot of dancing around.

Anyway, you might not knock him out but there's no way he is going to stab you at the very moment your fist is smashing his face. That isn't going to happen if you land the punch. He'll pause for at least a fraction of a second if you land it.

>He stabbed you 3 or 4. Guess who's laying on the ground dying?

If he missed you with his strikes then maybe this happened. Nobody gets punched square in the face and keeps coming forward fast enough to stab you before you can resume your balanced posture and evade them. Making him miss you is harder to do when he is tugging on your arm so you can't get away. Also, t is hard to concentrate on avoiding a strike and concentrate on stabbing at the same time. One or two strikes could be enough at that range with you trapped in place. I think the striker has a decent chance of succeeding.

He's got as good of a chance as the knife fighter of hitting his targets. You only have to get stabbed once. Yea, you only have to get hit once to get knocked out. ... You know, some people have been stabbed 12 times and lived. You've got to hit a blood vessel or an organ and he's still not going to die right away. It's harder to hit a good target when you have to defend against strikes. People get stabbed and live.

I'm not saying it is going to be a 100% chance for survival. I'm just saying, .. what else can you do against a kinfe anyway? Run? What if you are in an elevator or with three small children who can't run fast? What then?

>when you're completely focused on one hand,
>tying up both arms, he can switch and stab you
>before you can react fast enough to hit his hand.

No, I meant that the knifer could hit the guy who grabbed him's arms and escape. If a guy grabs my arm, I punch his arm. It works most of the time. People don't usually want to risk an injury just to hold onto a wrist. It also hurts a lot to get punched in the arm when it is fixed in a position like that.

>Both his hands are tied up, the knifer has a free one.

He can let go with one arm.

>Yeah..I'm sure stabbing victims never fought back.

Most of them never saw the knife or knew they were stabbed until it was over. I'm sure a lot of people have fought back and lost. Who knows what they tried to do? It would be nice to have some data on what worked best before they died. :P

>I agree. I'm just saying don't forget the knife or lose track of it.

I know what you mean. I'm just providing an argument. Knives are powerful weapons and kali experts can cut you to ribbons with them in no time flat. I'm just playing Houdini here. I like puzzles. I've tried all of this stuff out before. It's just fun to talk about with someone new. Like everyone says, the reality is that the guy with a knife has a huge advantage. Say a prayer and do your best. You are facing sudden death.

9chambers · Posted On: 3/24/2005 3:02am

Yea, I think we agree on most things. We are just ranting about what if this and that. Anyway, I gotta go to bed.

**Honey Badger** · Posted On: 3/24/2005 12:32pm

Originally Posted by 9chambers

Anyway, you might not knock him out but there's no way he is going to stab you at the very moment your fist is smashing his face. That isn't going to happen if you land the punch. He'll pause for at least a fraction of a second if you land it.

This is blatantly false. The knife may be sliding across your throat or between your ribs at the very second your strike hits his head. How many times in a sparring session have you "traded" with your partner?

One of the assumptions of Kali and other FMAs is that even a well placed strike may not have the intended effect so keep striking/slicing/stabbing until there's nothing left in front of you.

IF YOU REALLY WANT TO LEARN GOOD KNIFE TECHNIQUE, SEEK A QUALIFIED FMA INSTRUCTOR AND DON'T RELY ON WEB COACHES

I've been taught a few options for empty hand vs. knife. I'm not saying that any of them are %100 effective in every situation but if I can't use my run-fu, these are some of the methods I train.

Pin the attacking arm (briefly) with your forearm by stepping 45 deg and smashing down. Remember that motion they told you was a low block for kicks? IMO, it was lost in translation. Follow up from there as necessary.

or

Step 45 deg to the outside and establish control of the attacking ELBOW. Even in earth/pakal/blade-down grip it's almost impossible for someone to stab you if you control the elbow of the knife hand. You can then take the back for some nasty follow-ups and take downs and/or RUN AWAY.

Kicking a blade will probably get you stabbed/sliced in the leg. See if you can stopwatch time your fastet kick. Then stopwatch time making a small circular motion with a knife (redondo). I'll take the redondo 99 times out of 100.
Most of the Kali kicks are low, fast kicks to the legs and feet.

I reiterate that no technique is %100 effective and that I am not an instructor. I would welcome additional comments and critique from the other Kalistas and those who are instructors.