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  1. Zeddy is offline

    The Eternal n00b

    Join Date
    Feb 2003
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    ADL, AU
    Posts
    2,812

    Posted On:
    3/23/2005 4:47am

    Join us... or die
     Style: CM Boxing/BJJ/RBSD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TKDSystemaBeast
    I'm also wondering about using kicks to defend, your legs are longer and a lot stronger than your arms, but on the other hand I live in Canada, where it's icy 8 months a year. Getting a crescent kick into that nerve between bicep and tricep is not pleasant. So, if the conditions allow me to use kicks, should I use them?
    I always figured that legs tend to be slower than hands. In the few times I've played around with knives, if someone tries to kick the knife wielding arm, I cut the leg.
  2. 9chambers

    Guest

    Posted On:
    3/23/2005 1:29pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I used to kick knives out of hands on a regular basis in practice. I don't think I'd try it in real life but .. I might if the guy was just standing there and I thought he was slow or I had the element of surprise. It's all in the timing and the type of kick.

    NEVER use a crescent kick, that's retarded. Only one kick works for this. It has to be a front snap kick coming straight up. By front snap kick, I mean .. you know, like a roundhouse only a front kick .. like you are going to kick a soccer ball. You kick with your instep instead of the ball of your foot. They guy has the knife out there, you keep moving, suddenly you let your base leg loosen up and fling a front snap to the bottom of his hand and the knife goes sailing up in the air. That's the kick I used to do if I wanted to irritate someone in practice by sending the "knife" flying across the room. The reason it worked was because people thought they were well out of the range of my hands and so they weren't expecting an attack. Also, I could throw it from a relaxed stance so I could act like I was just playing defense for a minute (holding my ground) and when they stopped moving their hand and relaxed their shoulders, fwap, the pencil or stick or plastic whatever was sticking in the cieling or halfway across the room. Either that or it bounced off the cieling and hit one of us. :P

    Of course, this is just one of those crazy techniques that some people can pull off -- unless you are really fast with that kick and you know how to throw it without telegraphing it, I don't think it will work. I was always fast with that kick. There was almost no risk of getting cut doing the kick (as opposed to a crescent kick) because the kick is only there for a split second and the only thing within his reach is your shoe. Also, it was practice and we weren't kali and escrima people. I'm just saying, it can work sometimes.

    Flipping in the air three times and throwing a smoke bomb can work sometimes too. :)
    Last edited by 9chambers; 3/23/2005 1:53pm at .
  3. Feryk is offline

    Boneheaded Optimist

    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Keep going North until I say stop
    Posts
    2,109

    Posted On:
    3/23/2005 1:40pm

    supporting member
     Style: Wado Kai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by 9chambers
    I used to kick knives out of hands on a regular basis in practice. I don't think I'd try it in real life but .. I might if the guy was just standing there and I thought he was slow or I had the element of surprise. It's all in the timing and the type of kick.

    NEVER use a crescent kick, that's retarded. Only one kick works for this. It has to be a front snap kick coming straight up. By front snap kick, I mean .. you know, like a roundhouse only a front kick .. like you are going to kick a soccer ball. You kick with your instep instead of the ball of your foot. They guy has the knife out there, you keep moving, suddenly you let your base leg loosen up and fling a front snap to the bottom of his hand and the knife goes sailing up in the air. That's the kick I used to do if I wanted to irritate someone in practice by sending the "knife" flying across the room.

    Of course, this is just one of those crazy techniques that some people can pull off -- unless you are really fast with that kick and you know how to throw it without telegraphing it, I don't think it will work. I was always fast with that kick. There was almost no risk of getting cut doing this kick (as opposed to a crescent kick) because the kick is only there for a split second and the only thing within his reach is your shoe. Also, it was practice and we weren't kali and escrima people. I'm just saying, it can work sometimes.

    Flipping in the air three times and throwing a smoke bomb can work sometimes too. :)
    Okay, I don't know **** about knife fighting, but even without knowing ****, this violates the rules of common sense. If I had a knife, I'd have a death grip on the damn thing. If you are saying you can throw that kick faster than I can stab you, I'd argue. Even if you could, you'd have to hit my hand PERFECTLY to get me to release the knife. If you can't, I will turn your ass into swiss cheese.

    Oh, AND you are on one foot. Even if you are balanced, you're not mobile. I would think movement is very important in knife defense, but again, I don't really know ****. Just trying to apply common sense.
  4. 9chambers

    Guest

    Posted On:
    3/23/2005 1:51pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    >this violates the rules of common sense.

    It's pretty much just a parlor trick. You guys mentioned kicks so I thought I'd share my experience. Like I said, I don't think I'd use this in real life. Maybe if I saw a perfect opportunity -- like the guy said, don't move, then started looking around and sneezed and covered his eyes with a hanky.

    >If I had a knife, I'd have a death grip on the damn thing.

    Doesn't matter. The hand opens when you strike it at certain points. On the inside it is the wrist. On the outside, it is just behind the knuckles. On the top, it is the base of the thumb. On the bottom (as in this crazy kick) it is the pinky. If you kick his wrist, it won't work. You have to hit his fingers with your instep. It's a sharp shooter trick, nothing more. Still, it can work sometimes.

    >If you are saying you can throw that kick
    >faster than I can stab you, I'd argue.

    It's a fast kick, also under the radar and with the element of surprise. Nobody thinks you are going to kick their hand like that because it's retarded. They think they are in a safe range. They let up for a second and you kick. It won't work if they are ready. You have to feign or act or somehow sell the idea that you are unable to attack right then. Psychology comes into play. Like I said, it's a trick -- not a solid technique.

    >Oh, AND you are on one foot.

    For like half a second, tops.

    > Just trying to apply common sense.

    Nobody would use this technique if they are going to apply common sense. This is a "Hail Mary" technique. I'm just sharing how I did it in case anyone wants to try it for fun.

    p.s. I edited my last post a little bit while you were quoting it.
    Last edited by 9chambers; 3/23/2005 1:57pm at .
  5. Reikon is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    3/23/2005 3:08pm


     Style: Knife-jitsu o=]==>

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Personally I would suggest keeping kicks below the waist to minimize the chance of someone grabbing your leg. Person with knife + your leg = bad situation.
  6. 9chambers

    Guest

    Posted On:
    3/23/2005 9:04pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Kicking above the waist (in general) is bad advice. For the kick I mentioned (which is again, just a trick and not a solid technique), they have to have their arm low and extended. If they have their hands up in a boxing stance, forget it.

    grabbing

    One thing I do want to say is that I think it is okay to grab the knife hand sometimes. People seem to think the guy is going to flick his wrist around and cut your wrist. Still, if you grab his wrist and tug on it fast so you can punch him in the face, then knock the knife out of his hand and punch him in the face again.. what's wrong with that? You keep moving and he is being fired on so he can't concentrate on flicking his wrist.

    You can also do a number of Hapkido type throws with a firm hold on someone's wrist. The most basic being to just grab his wrist with both hands, spin his arm over your head (or duck under it) and flip him. Then knock the knife out and mount him.

    A lot of people think grabbing the knife arm is taboo. I never understood that. Of course, if the guy has the blade facing down you can't grab his wrist (unless it's coming down Friday the 13th style with the knife out at 90 degrees), I understand that. If the guy has a 6 inch blade on a double sided knife then it might not be a good idea, yea -- but grabbing his arm and coming in with one of these [see picture] isn't all that crazy.



    Of course, I wouldn't cross my legs like that or wear that outfit. ... Anyway, nothing is high percentage in this situation. Sometimes, doing something unexpected (maybe even something that might seem stupid) is the only edge you can get. That's all I'm saying.
    Last edited by 9chambers; 3/23/2005 9:09pm at .
  7. Jolly_Roger is offline

    Lord Of the Rhymes

    Join Date
    Dec 2003
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    Buenos Aires, Argentina
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    1,918

    Posted On:
    3/23/2005 9:53pm


     Style: Pimpin/Tango-thanks Xango

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by 9chambers
    >

    Doesn't matter. The hand opens when you strike it at certain points.

    Phear the ninja pressure point attack!
    No can defend!
    Canuckyokushin:

    These women can do back flips right over my head and still land on there feet .GRrrrrrrr!

    feedback:

    THAT'S NOTHING, I USED TO KNOW SOME 12 YEAR-OLDS WHO COULD FIT INSIDE A SUITCASE AND STAY ALIVE FOR 7 OR WAS IT 6 HOURS
  8. 9chambers

    Guest

    Posted On:
    3/24/2005 12:25am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It's not pressure points -- it's anatomy. Hold a pen (or knife if you have one there) in your own hand as tight as you can and slam it down onto the desk in front of you as hard as you can -- only instead of landing on the base of your hand, slam your pinky and fingers right into the table at a slight angle so the pinky hits first. See if you can hold on to the knife. You can't. I'm trying to do it right now with a knife. I can't. ... I'm going to stop now before I cut myself.

    Anyway, coming up from underneath, the fingers are the weak point of the fist. Coming from the top, it's the thumb. Coming from the outside, it's just behind the knuckles. Coming from the inside, it's the wrist (this one is the most reliable). -- Most guys teach chopping the wrist so you have more of a chance of hitting it but that's too slow and you give him more of a target. I just throw a hook punch, using my knuckles to the wrist.

    * If the knife wielder holds the blade down then the targets on the top and bottom of the hand are no longer valid.

    Anyway, this is all craziness. These are sharp shooter tricks and not solid techniques. ... How many solid techniques are there for knife defense though? I think it's important to know what you can do, so you can use it if you see a chance. Like, maybe you wrestle him to the ground but he has the knife and you grab his arm but can't pry it out of his hand. Now you know where to punch to make him let go.
  9. Reikon is offline

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,004

    Posted On:
    3/24/2005 12:31am


     Style: Knife-jitsu o=]==>

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by 9chambers
    Kicking above the waist (in general) is bad advice. For the kick I mentioned (which is again, just a trick and not a solid technique), they have to have their arm low and extended. If they have their hands up in a boxing stance, forget it.

    grabbing

    One thing I do want to say is that I think it is okay to grab the knife hand sometimes. People seem to think the guy is going to flick his wrist around and cut your wrist. Still, if you grab his wrist and tug on it fast so you can punch him in the face, then knock the knife out of his hand and punch him in the face again.. what's wrong with that? You keep moving and he is being fired on so he can't concentrate on flicking his wrist.

    You can also do a number of Hapkido type throws with a firm hold on someone's wrist. The most basic being to just grab his wrist with both hands, spin his arm over your head (or duck under it) and flip him. Then knock the knife out and mount him.

    A lot of people think grabbing the knife arm is taboo. I never understood that. Of course, if the guy has the blade facing down you can't grab his wrist (unless it's coming down Friday the 13th style with the knife out at 90 degrees), I understand that. If the guy has a 6 inch blade on a double sided knife then it might not be a good idea, yea -- but grabbing his arm and coming in with one of these [see picture] isn't all that crazy.



    Of course, I wouldn't cross my legs like that or wear that outfit. ... Anyway, nothing is high percentage in this situation. Sometimes, doing something unexpected (maybe even something that might seem stupid) is the only edge you can get. That's all I'm saying.
    http://ntkali.org/membersclip.mp4

    Random Kali clip about grabbing the wrist.
  10. Jolly_Roger is offline

    Lord Of the Rhymes

    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Buenos Aires, Argentina
    Posts
    1,918

    Posted On:
    3/24/2005 1:12am


     Style: Pimpin/Tango-thanks Xango

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by 9chambers

    grabbing

    One thing I do want to say is that I think it is okay to grab the knife hand sometimes. People seem to think the guy is going to flick his wrist around and cut your wrist. Still, if you grab his wrist and tug on it fast so you can punch him in the face, then knock the knife out of his hand and punch him in the face again.. what's wrong with that? You keep moving and he is being fired on so he can't concentrate on flicking his wrist.

    You can also do a number of Hapkido type throws with a firm hold on someone's wrist. The most basic being to just grab his wrist with both hands, spin his arm over your head (or duck under it) and flip him. Then knock the knife out and mount him.

    A lot of people think grabbing the knife arm is taboo. I never understood that. Of course, if the guy has the blade facing down you can't grab his wrist (unless it's coming down Friday the 13th style with the knife out at 90 degrees), I understand that. If the guy has a 6 inch blade on a double sided knife then it might not be a good idea, yea -- but grabbing his arm and coming in with one of these [see picture] isn't all that crazy.


    Of course, I wouldn't cross my legs like that or wear that outfit. ... Anyway, nothing is high percentage in this situation. Sometimes, doing something unexpected (maybe even something that might seem stupid) is the only edge you can get. That's all I'm saying.
    Chambers, don´t take this the wrong way, but trying to grab a wrist when someone has a knife is suicide. Trying to do something stupid comes naturally (at least for me), and it never seem to work.
    You can try (and should) control his arm, but the wrist is almost impossible to control without getting cut badly. When your hand moves towards the grip he can slash it before you get him. Of course, perhaps he doesn´t know it (most untrained people always aim for the face/body only), but if you are before a knife, and can´t run, you can´t assume that he/she doesn´t know how to use it.
    Canuckyokushin:

    These women can do back flips right over my head and still land on there feet .GRrrrrrrr!

    feedback:

    THAT'S NOTHING, I USED TO KNOW SOME 12 YEAR-OLDS WHO COULD FIT INSIDE A SUITCASE AND STAY ALIVE FOR 7 OR WAS IT 6 HOURS

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