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  1. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/17/2004 1:32pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Oh Oh, it's a knife...

    Knife 101

    Ok, bare with me on this.
    The knife, blade: anywhere from 3" to 10", anymore and it’s a freaking machete !!!
    It cuts, slashes, tabs and, if heavy enough, chops.
    It can come at you straight, up, down and all 45 degree directions, in fact, any movemtn you make with your hand/arm is an attack with a knife.
    It can be single or double edges, folding or fixed.

    And for all the times that running and giving into the knife wielder, are NOT options:
    Knife protection 101 ( note I did not say defence, I don’t like the “defensive” mind that the word defence implies).

    I don’t care how you do it, get out of the way of the fucking blade !!!!!!
    I don’t care how you do it, disarm the fucker.
    If you have to, use the fucking knife on him.
    If you have your own knife, use it.

    Now, that being said.
    HOW ??
    Suggestion #1:
    Train knife fighting or fighting with a knife if you prefer that way of expressing it.
    Start with a rubber knife, move to a wooden knife, then a marker, then a DULL steel knife and finally, and you MUST to this, a live blade.
    At a certain point, you need to understand how a vision and feel of a live blade will effect you.
    You will get cut, you will bleed, BUT, you will understand what it means to deal with a blade.
    You MUST wear protection.
    UNDERSTAND that, this type of training is for ADVANCED practitioners, and I mean ADVANCED.
    Suggestion #2:
    Whatever art you choose to apply to this training, do NOT give the attacker ALL the time and ALL the opportunities he needs to stab you.
    Do NOT step back unless caught be surprise, if you step back, you are giving him ANOTHER chance to stab you, how many do you think he needs ?
    DO neutralise the attacking blade/hand/arm, how you do it, is up to you, BUT if how you are trying to do it does NOT work, time to try something else.
    REMEMBER THIS: he can have MORE than one knife, you MUST finish the fight FAST.
    Suggestion #3:
    If you manage to acquire the knife, use it, but understand the legalities of it.
    No weapon can harm you if you are NOT in the “line of fire”, master positional awareness.

    Some arts advocate attacking the armed limb, other advocate “killing the body and the limb dies”.
    Whatever your chosen art advocates, PERFECT IT, fighting someone with a bladed weapon means, NO MISTAKES.
    Please feel free to add anything you feel can be of use.

    And yes, we ALL know and agree, its better to run or to avoid.
    That is not the point of THIS thread.
  2. WingChun Lawyer is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/17/2004 1:39pm

    supporting member
     Style: Muay Thai, BJJ newbie.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I´ll be a good boy and avoid killing this thread, but indulge me: I always thought that if I was faced with a knife wielding thug, my best bet would be to use front kicks to keep the distance and create an opportunity to run away. That´s my plain on dealing with a knife. What do you think I should do, then, considering I am not an advanced practitioner? Do some training with a marker? Just train my front kicks? Create a better plan?
    That civilisation may not sink,
    Its great battle lost,
    Quiet the dog, tether the pony
    To a distant post;
    Our master Caesar is in the tent
    Where the maps are spread,
    His eyes fixed upon nothing,
    A hand under his head.


    - W.B. Yeats
  3. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/17/2004 1:44pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You WANNA get stabbed in the leg ??
  4. WingChun Lawyer is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/17/2004 1:48pm

    supporting member
     Style: Muay Thai, BJJ newbie.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by ronin69
    You WANNA get stabbed in the leg ??
    OK, I admit that wouldn´t help the second part of the plan (running away). But what about front kicks aimed at the attacker´s legs? Those would certainly be harder to counter with a knife (unless we are talking about a machete here, of course).
    That civilisation may not sink,
    Its great battle lost,
    Quiet the dog, tether the pony
    To a distant post;
    Our master Caesar is in the tent
    Where the maps are spread,
    His eyes fixed upon nothing,
    A hand under his head.


    - W.B. Yeats
  5. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/17/2004 1:50pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Rule #1: if you are gonna assume, assume that the other guy KNOWS how to fight, NOT that he is an idiot.
  6. drunkenj is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/17/2004 1:53pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    eminently sensible Ronin,

    the only thing i would add, just to be explicit would be to stress that the attacker should always strive to do things that are realistic, like trying to control you, grab and strike with his free limbs

    working things like having the attacker conceal the knife, in his hand (so you cant tell which hand) or to suddenly pull a training knife during normal sparring are probably good too
  7. drunkenj is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/17/2004 1:55pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    rule #2 ---- any knife encounter is an attempt on your life, the attacker should be completely inacapacitated, you MUST train this
  8. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/17/2004 1:55pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Good drills, thanks.
  9. Muqatil is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/17/2004 1:57pm


     Style: BBT/Flinging poo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Front kicking may not be the best course of action. Might end up with a few cuts that would prohibit running should the chance arise. :)

    One other thing to consider in regards to attacking the limb/controlling the knife. If you are worried about trying to control the knife, you could lose sight of the other fist and or feet. Yes, while I realize that big tough guys would rather take a punch than be stabbed, that punch may be enough to cause you to lose the knife which would then be free to stab/cut. I'm not saying it is bad, just take into consideration the other "weapons". This may be one reason why other people advocate controlling the person and his space rather than the weapon. If I control him through balance or my positioning, he can't really cut me without reorienting, which will be slower than my attacks if I am in a good space.

    Another thing to consider, there is NO dancing around looking for the opening. You create it. You have to be commited and agressive. Trying to slap his hand or bouncing around to "dodge" will probably end up messy.
  10. Escrima9 is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/17/2004 1:58pm


     Style: EC, BJJ n00b

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    WCL: Low kicks like trying to sweep or reap the leg may work depending on how fast they are thrown and the skill of the knife man. But anything higher is asking for trouble. If the guy is skilled he could offline and slice at teh leg you are giving him. If his not so skilled he may just slash wildly at the leg as it comes in. Either way that leg is more than likely to get cut. if however, giving him the leg is your set up for something more I'd suggest avoid sacrificing the inner thigh because there are some mager arteries there.

    Ronin: I'd add having a plan. Know what you are doing because you don't want to check the knife hand successfully then lose a moment because the fact you got it surprised you (I'm not explaining that well but I've seen it happen.).

    If you do end up grasping the knife hand be it by intercepting then limb manipulation, grappling or taking a shot(not advised but sometimes you have no choice *) try to get the thumb lock. Practice it, it will become natural. Clamping the guys own hand around the weapon is often unexpected a nd them holding it is good, grip or tear at the bicep and force their arm to bend. Give their knife back to them by using their arm. Twist their knife hand down towards the inside of the wrist while controling the elbow so the arm goes no where. You should be able to stick their blade in their stomach or side. if you feel it necessary raise the arm with the elbow and shove the blade in their face/throat.

    Far from easy though the benefit of this is your prints aren't on the knife.

    * expect to get cut. It is more than likely you will. No real way to train for that, but preparing mentally can help. If you do get cut, capitalise on it. Explode and look to get your thumb or fingers in the guys eyes.

    Always keep the knife hand in check, devastate the arm at the earliest oppotunity and never lose track of where the weapon is or indeed his live hand.

    Skilled vs unskilled. It doesn't really matter. I often think it doesn't matter with or without a weapon, for example you know 4 ways punch(skilled) the other guy knows he has a fist and his focus is hitting you with it. While you select a punch his punching. With a weapon its even worse, so just exploding and not worrying about technique to much helps. Again i doubt I explained that well.
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