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  1. J-kid is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/17/2004 2:13am


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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Beheading video fake?

    Someone broke this down. Though after reviewing versions of that tape which are not clear quiltiy it is hard for me to say ether way.
    Here is what this guy had to say *trying to prove he was dead at the time of beheading* to me though it appears that he has been sleep deprived but i am not sure what to believe.

    Berg execution was a FAKE - for the love of god read this

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    First of all, I know this is largely Pit material, but I feel that news of this caliber deserves the increased exposure of the main forum. Please keep replies intelligent, honest, topical, and free of slander against me. Debate the topic, not the person who brought it up.

    Sources for all my facts can be found at the bottom, they are labeled according to subject.

    That having been said...

    Many of you might remember that I started a thread on the day the video was released noting how "convenient" it was that the tape had come out, just as the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal was in full swing. Not only did this take the abuse scandal off of headlines, but it swayed public opinion back against "those fucking Iraqis".

    Evidence

    1) Most people replied by asserting that the execution occured as retribution to the abuse photos that had surfaced, but you have to ask yourself - do these terrorists, who are clearly capable of brainwashing people to the point where they are willing to kill and be killed for their beliefs, really have no concept of political tact? Here they are, the whole world screaming at the US for hypocrisy and injustice over these pictures, and they perform and publish this execution right in the heat of the scandal. In other words, these masters of brainwashing and spin and deception release a video of a despicable act just as the US, their sworn enemy, is being globally grilled. Does this make sense to you?

    2) Second, I wonder what the standard issue chair is at Abu Ghraib prison?



    *cough*

    3) Is it not interesting that the wall colour at Abu Ghraib prison is identical to that of the video?

    4) Is it not also interesting that Berg is wearing the same orange jumpsuit worn by prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison? Sure, you say, perhaps he was kidnapped directly from the prison (as stupid as this sounds, anyway) - but then can you please explain (7)?

    5) Is it also not interesting that the timecodes in the video jump back and forth?

    6) Is it also not interesting that Berg did not exhibit any of the convulsions that typically accompany decapitation? http://www.ahsc.arizona.edu/uac/iacuc/rodents/avma.htm I am suggesting here that Berg was already dead when the decapitation occured (which accounts for 5). Before you go calling me crazy, please review the evidence; why did he not exhibit the convulsions that go hand in hand with decapitation (especially such an extended one)?

    7) Is it not curious that the US denies contact with Berg, and yet his friends and family insist that he told them he was being held by the US? Huh? Why?

    8) Another tape oddity - the men SPEAK RUSSIAN for several seconds. Not only that, but they speak Arabic with Russian accents. That's right, in the final seconds of the tape, one of the men speaks in Russian. Those here who understand russian (and have the stomach to view that final seconds of the video) can verify this. Those who speak Arabic will be able to verify that these men speak Arabic in Russian accents.

    9) Finally (the physical evidence that will convince you in case you already aren't)...
    You will notice, in watching the video, that 6 times, a gold ring flashes on the hand of the executioner. What is the problem? Islam completely and utterly forbids men to wear gold rings. This fanatical muslim, willing to kill in a gutwrenching manner, and be killed for his beliefs, is violating one of the clear prohibitions of his religion? Really? DOES THIS MAKE SENSE TO YOU?

    edit:
    Two more points:

    10) Nick Berg understands Arabic, but sits calmy while statement is read, waiting to be killed. Hmm?

    11) One of the executioners is wearing Air Jordans. WHAT?

    edit 2:

    12) The "terrorists" signed the video, yet they wear hoods and masks. Why?

    13) The "terrorists" have lily white hands.

    14) The video time is in US Military English. What the hell?

    Conclusion
    As many has suspected, but have not had the time to build a solid case for, the execution of Nick Berg was performed by coalition interests (most likely independent Russian mercenaries) in order to dwarf the abuse pictures and sway public opinion back against the Iraqis and in support of the war by taking advantage of the emotional reaction we all experience when hearing of such an despicable act. The poor production quality (all the "curiosities" I have pointed out) of this video can be attributed to the haste in which it was made after the order was given to distract the public from the abuse scandal, and is in line with my conclusion.

    Again, before you attack my conclusion, attack my evidence. No matter how crazy you think this sounds, examine the evidence objectively and please try to deny a single thing I have said. If you cannot deny my evidence, you logically cannot deny my conclusion. Make your replies free of subjective opinions and ad hominem attacks or I will not reply to them.


    Sources:

    Chair, wall, timecode, and :
    http://www.libertyforum.org/showfla...=-1#Post1469025
    http://www.news24houston.com/conten...D=28906&SecID=2

    Berg was in US custody:
    http://www........./2004/WORLD/meast...ends/index.html
    (you'll have to copy & paste this one since genmay blocks cnn links as you know)

    Gold rings forbidden by Islam:
    http://www.khilafah.com/home/catego...ID=9529&TagID=2
    http://www.google.com/search?q=gold...=utf-8&oe=utf-8

    The execution video can be seen here (warning, extremely graphic): http://temp.eyecannon.com/iraq2vediom.wmv


    PS: In other news, the video that the US used to incriminate Bin Laden in masterminding the 9/11 attacks was a fake. http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/osamatape.html Judge for yourself. I will be doing another post on this once I gather more information. Once you have made up your mind, please ask yourself why the government would want to fake Bin Laden's guilt, which apparently justified the entire Afghanistan war (where an oil pipeline is now being built, which the Taliban had refused to allow).

    As you can see he dos have some valid points, yet if he was sleep deprived or drugged to some extend. it could account for the lack of a fight back, or it could be he was in shock from what he heard. Its really hard to say, if you havent seen the video and would like to, go to www.orgish.com, my friend had a site where there was a clearer video.
    *as you must already know the video isnt for those light at heart*.

    anyhow i would like to hear what you guys think.
    Once a fighter, Always a fighter. Shawn
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  2. J-kid is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/17/2004 2:14am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    http://www.genmay.com/showthread.php?t=354134 *(here is the guys link)*
    *link for artical* and discussion to go with it.

    also another intresting dicussion (alot of crap in both threads) but there are some insiteful views, in both threads http://www.sherdog.net/forums/showth...0&pagenumber=4
    Once a fighter, Always a fighter. Shawn
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  3. Stick is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/17/2004 4:55am

    hall of famestaff
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Re: Beheading video fake?

    I'm going to enjoy this....

    Originally posted by J-kid
    Berg execution was a FAKE - for the love of god read this
    And what expert is claiming this J-Kid?

    Ah, i see, the internationally renowned and well respected master of videography and forensics, Mike27. Well if he's on the case...


    First of all, I know this is largely Pit material, but I feel that news of this caliber deserves the increased exposure of the main forum. Please keep replies intelligent, honest, topical, and free of slander against me. Debate the topic, not the person who brought it up.
    DAMNIT! Must remember; read directions before answering questions!


    Sources for all my facts can be found at the bottom, they are labeled according to subject.

    That having been said...
    That being said, let's get this ****'n show on the bloody road!


    Many of you might remember that I started a thread on the day the video was released noting how "convenient" it was that the tape had come out, just as the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal was in full swing. Not only did this take the abuse scandal off of headlines, but it swayed public opinion back against "those fucking Iraqis".
    Being in Japan I have a slightly unique perspective, the spotlight is still on the torture scandal.

    I suppose I have no room to comment on this one.

    I still find it asinine though :-P



    Evidence
    We'll see if it pleases the bloody court.


    1) Most people replied by asserting that the execution occured as retribution to the abuse photos that had surfaced, but you have to ask yourself - do these terrorists, who are clearly capable of brainwashing people to the point where they are willing to kill and be killed for their beliefs, really have no concept of political tact? Here they are, the whole world screaming at the US for hypocrisy and injustice over these pictures, and they perform and publish this execution right in the heat of the scandal. In other words, these masters of brainwashing and spin and deception release a video of a despicable act just as the US, their sworn enemy, is being globally grilled. Does this make sense to you?
    You have to ask yourself; does the American military, which are clearly capable of training people to the point where they are willing to kill and be killed for their beliefs, really have no concept of political tact? Here they are, the whole world screaming at the US for invading Iraq against the global opinion, and they perform and publish these pictures right in the heat of the scandal. In other words, these masters of propaganda and spin and deception release a thousand pictures of despicable acts just as the US, is being globally grilled. Does this make sense to you?

    Well, does it? I hope my point isn't lost on you, kiddo.


    2) Second, I wonder what the standard issue chair is at Abu Ghraib prison?


    *cough*
    Funny how that cheap ass, $5 lawn chair is standard issue in almost every place I've ever been in. Yeah, they're in Germany and Japan and every state in the union..... is it really that difficult to believe that in a poor country, people are gonna buy cheap ass chairs? Hell, for all we know, between sucking off her fellow reservists, Pvt. England may have hopped down to the local IraK-mart and picked a couple of those puppies up on the same day our good Mr. Zarqawi!


    3) Is it not interesting that the wall colour at Abu Ghraib prison is identical to that of the video?
    Wow Holmes, that's quite a deduction you've got there.

    As I'm color blind I really can't call the author on the veracity of this statement. However one must wonder, what is the color of the average wall in an Iraqi home, small business, or government building? I'd bet a million bucks to Mike27's 2 fucking cents that it ain't far from the shade of gray I see behind Berg's soon to be severed head.


    4) Is it not also interesting that Berg is wearing the same orange jumpsuit worn by prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison? Sure, you say, perhaps he was kidnapped directly from the prison (as stupid as this sounds, anyway) - but then can you please explain (7)?
    As Os has already pointed out; no one else in the world has orange jump suits? Also, how do you know that that is federal issue? Do you know how many pockets there are? Are there numbers?

    What is this completely suspicion that Berg was held in Graihb? Seriously, even if Berg was held in some federal detention center- which I believe he was for a time-, what "source" does Mike27 have to support the notion that it was Abu Graihb where Mr. Berg stayed for some time? According to his family's testimony, Berg said he had been well treated by allied forces, if anything that would imply that he was probably NOT held at Abu Graihb!

    According to friends, Berg got off an e-mail after he was released by allied forces, thus we can assume he was not liberated from an allied prison in a horribly bungled attempt to free a fellow Muslim.


    5) Is it also not interesting that the timecodes in the video jump back and forth?
    Yes it is, it is entirely possible that the murderers poisoned, strangled, drowned, Berg before the beheading to make it easier. As fucked up as these 5 men obviously are, it still must be psychologically and physically easier to decapitate a corpse. The beheading may have just been for the dramatic effect, an autopsy would reveal this, however we may not have that fact revealed to us.

    Again, for all we know they did several takes on the speech. Maybe they went for some lunch, gave Berg a last meal- with POISON in it- and took a nap.


    6) Is it also not interesting that Berg did not exhibit any of the convulsions that typically accompany decapitation? http://www.ahsc.arizona.edu/uac/iacuc/rodents/avma.htm I am suggesting here that Berg was already dead when the decapitation occured (which accounts for 5). Before you go calling me crazy, please review the evidence; why did he not exhibit the convulsions that go hand in hand with decapitation (especially such an extended one)?
    Yes, entirely possible, however, does this fact make him any less decapitated? Does it make the fact that his head was cut off on video any less true? Is Berg any less dead?

    This would-be expert claims to be saying this video is some sort of forgery, however he presents no evidence to imply that Berg DIDN'T have his head cut off.

    Now, if the author of this little yarn wants to imply that it wasn't Zarqawi and co. who did in Mr. Berg, that's one thing, but this nonsense as to whether Berg was dead before the beheading or not has absolutely no baring on this question whatsoever.


    7) Is it not curious that the US denies contact with Berg, and yet his friends and family insist that he told them he was being held by the US? Huh? Why?
    Oh, hey, there it is again.

    IIRC some agencies are denying, some are confirming, my guess; some agencies dealt with him, others did not. They certainly warned him to leave the country.


    8) Another tape oddity - the men SPEAK RUSSIAN for several seconds. Not only that, but they speak Arabic with Russian accents. That's right, in the final seconds of the tape, one of the men speaks in Russian. Those here who understand russian (and have the stomach to view that final seconds of the video) can verify this. Those who speak Arabic will be able to verify that these men speak Arabic in Russian accents.
    Is it not a known fact that Al-Quaeda is an international organization that has in fact acted within Russia? Is it not a known fact that many of the mujahadin in Iraq now are foreigners? John Walker Lyn (or however his name is spelled) served his terrorist organization and was all the terrorist he could be, who's to say Piotr and Alexi can't either? Al-Quaeda is an equal opportunity employer after all.


    Long post, intermission...
    Last edited by Stick; 5/17/2004 4:59am at .
  4. Stick is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/17/2004 4:56am

    hall of famestaff
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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    ... and I'm back!



    9) Finally (the physical evidence that will convince you in case you already aren't)...
    You will notice, in watching the video, that 6 times, a gold ring flashes on the hand of the executioner. What is the problem? Islam completely and utterly forbids men to wear gold rings. This fanatical Muslim, willing to kill in a gutwrenching manner, and be killed for his beliefs, is violating one of the clear prohibitions of his religion? Really? DOES THIS MAKE SENSE TO YOU?
    Wow, jack ass.

    Unless all the Muslims expressing outrage over this incident are just liars, well, there seems to be a strong consensus that "Islam completely and utterly forbids men to" behead an innocent man.

    Didn't see that one coming did ya, smarty.


    edit:
    Two more points:
    Oh my goodness-gracious-me, MORE!


    10) Nick Berg understands Arabic, but sits calmy while statement is read, waiting to be killed. Hmm?
    He had likely been in captivity for quite some time, was more than likely sleep and food deprived and had been threatened and abused for quite a while. It is entirely possible that a) he just kinda accepted that they were gonna keep talking about killing him (they may have made several videos and told him for days "you're gonna die", slowly eroding the fear inspired by just hearing the threat) b) he may not have been focusing well enough to understand a language that is not necessarily native to him. Unless Berg was raised in an Arabic speaking household, highly doubtful, chances are his Arabic required a great deal of concentration and for all we know he may not even have the vocabulary to understand what these men were talking about (I KNOW I would not understand all aspects of the speech given were it done in Japanese and that's when I am at the top of my game).

    Also, he was fucking tied up and surrounded, what the **** was he supposed to do? Ever watch executions, lots of folks look like they "sit there calmly (...) waiting to be killed".


    11) One of the executioners is wearing Air Jordans. WHAT?
    Another completely asinine statement.

    I borrow Pumas from an Egyptian friend for our weekly soccer games, he has 5 pairs of sneakers with no less than 2 pair of jordans..... or what appear to be jordans. Ever seen fakes buddy boy? Even upon close inspection sweat shop cheap crap can appear practically identical to name brand, what the **** makes you think you can identify those as Air Jordans in that grainy video? Even then, the guy obviously has a fucking video camera, somehow he can't afford shoes or even the cheap knock-off versions there of?


    edit 2:
    Oh, don't stop baby!


    12) The "terrorists" signed the video, yet they wear hoods and masks. Why?
    Because they often do, ever seen footage of the Israeli Olympic team incident? The brave terrorist wore shoe polish on his face.

    In numerous Palestinian terrorist vids, the militants do not show their faces regardless of what names may or may not be given or attributed to the tape.

    Also, don't put terrorists in quotes.



    13) The "terrorists" have lily white hands.
    Well if they're Russian Al-Quaeda than that would make a heaping helping of sense, now wouldn't it?


    14) The video time is in US Military English. What the hell?
    The Japanese train system is displayed at all times in the 24:00 system. Many electronics are set to the 24 system by default. Military use the system as itís more efficient, wouldn't it follow that terrorists would prize a little efficiency too?


    Conclusion
    As many has suspected, but have not had the time to build a solid case for, the execution of Nick Berg was performed by coalition interests (most likely independent Russian mercenaries) in order to dwarf the abuse pictures and sway public opinion back against the Iraqis and in support of the war by taking advantage of the emotional reaction we all experience when hearing of such an despicable act. The poor production quality (all the "curiosities" I have pointed out) of this video can be attributed to the haste in which it was made after the order was given to distract the public from the abuse scandal, and is in line with my conclusion.
    Wow.... it's like you erected some straws on the beach and then tried to balance a mansion upon them. Fucking amazing.


    Again, before you attack my conclusion, attack my evidence. No matter how crazy you think this sounds, examine the evidence objectively and please try to deny a single thing I have said. If you cannot deny my evidence, you logically cannot deny my conclusion. Make your replies free of subjective opinions and ad hominem attacks or I will not reply to them.
    Oh, hey kewl I totally did that!

    Your logic is as flawed as my eyesight; it's a wonder you can look outside, observe the sky, and arrive at a logical conclusion as to what you should wear for the day. You can, can't you?

    Utterly unimpressed, J-Kid. I'm very disappointed in you.
  5. chaosexmachina is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/17/2004 5:10am

    Join us... or die
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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Way to stick it to 'Mike27', Dai-Tenshi! Too bad he probably doesn't go to bullshido...
    "The depressing thing about tennis is that no matter how good I get, I'll never be as good as a wall." - Mitch Hedberg

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  6. Stick is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/17/2004 5:14am

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    Details, details...
  7. drunkenj is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/17/2004 5:21am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I wondered when this video was released if there would be some controversy surrounding the authenticity of it. I think that the fact that the video was released straight into the public domain, rather than being given to the government , or even to arabic mainstream media (where it would have been given at least a cursory inspection), has been very detrimental.

    if berg was indeed already dead then that does indeed make him less beheaded....... his corpse is then mutilated, he is not beheaded, decapitation requires aliveness.

    If these guys do in fact turn out to be russian, we need to know if they are chechen, if they are mercenaries and who is funding them to be in iraq?

    I do worry that the govt of the us and uk would supress knowledge into any investigation into the authenticity of the tape, because of its political value
  8. Stick is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/17/2004 6:20am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    No it doesn't. He was decapitated; decapitation requires head removal. We're not talking about sparring, "aliveness" indeed.

    As for Chechen mercenaries, given the great propensity for Chechnians to be Muslim, it would stand to reinforce any association with Al-Quaeda. "Allah Ackbar" is a favorite saying of theres, who knows maybe that's why people have remarked about how they say it funny.
  9. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/17/2004 7:11am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If I may...
    It is pretty clear that , at the very least, he was VERY drugged as to NOT fight back and resist the decapitation, I thought that was so obvious that it didn't even need to be mentioned.
    As for already being dead, perhaps, but that does NOT change the fact that he was decapitated.
    Also, for Muslims, if he was dead, it would have been an even greater "insult" to desecrate a "dead body" like that.

    As for the other "opinions", Let me say this:
    ENOUGH with the FUCKING CONSPIRACY THEORIES !!!!!!!!
    AAAAARRGHGHH !!!!!!
    I swear to you, there must be a conspiracy behind everything in this world, including the fact that Silva is really an evolved ape !!!

    Conspiracy this, conspiracy that, blah , blah , blah !!!
    I got your one big, long, thick, conspiracy right here !!!
  10. chaosexmachina is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/17/2004 7:36am

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    I thought all humans were evolved apes? :p
    "The depressing thing about tennis is that no matter how good I get, I'll never be as good as a wall." - Mitch Hedberg

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