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  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post
    But I think this situation is different. Here's the thing. Karate guys and other traditional martial artists spend a lot of time talking about what martial arts are really about.....respect, discipline, honor, confidence, all that ****......and I think they're absolutely right. Ultimately that is the highest reward of good martial arts training.

    The problem is that those guys talk about those things but rarely achieve them. The reason is that all those benefits, in my opinion are best earned through blistering, realistic fight training. They're earned through genuine struggle. From putting yourself in the fire and failing time and time again. This is what most people should be doing if they want to reap the full benefits of martial arts training.
    Why cant you achieve respect, discipline, honor, confidence etc. through crotty or TKD, or soccer or basketball? If you are competing and succeeding against other people who are playing whatever game/sport (as long as you're all playing by the same rules) what difference does the real world application make. Tiger Woods is a legend, Serena Williams is a goddess, but their chosen sports have no practical application outside of their chosen sport (though I guess a golf club or tennis racket might make a decent weapon in a bar fight).

    My reluctance is that one of the goals her mother and I have for her is self defense. It's not at the top of the list, but it's on the list. Is having a bit of crappy karate going to be a help or hindrance in that respect? Will she be able to fight off a boy who has wrestling/BJJ experience? Hell no, but will she be able to stand up to a girl who has no MA at all? Will she be better off than nothing? I'd like to think so, but I'm not sure.

  2. #12

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    2600 butler

    ooooopps
    Last edited by BigJim520; 4/08/2016 9:49am at . Reason: duplicate

  3. #13
    His heart was visible, and the dismal sack that maketh excrement of what is eaten. supporting member
    Devil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJim520 View Post
    Why cant you achieve respect, discipline, honor, confidence etc. through crotty or TKD, or soccer or basketball? If you are competing and succeeding against other people who are playing whatever game/sport (as long as you're all playing by the same rules) what difference does the real world application make. Tiger Woods is a legend, Serena Williams is a goddess, but their chosen sports have no practical application outside of their chosen sport (though I guess a golf club or tennis racket might make a decent weapon in a bar fight).

    My reluctance is that one of the goals her mother and I have for her is self defense. It's not at the top of the list, but it's on the list. Is having a bit of crappy karate going to be a help or hindrance in that respect? Will she be able to fight off a boy who has wrestling/BJJ experience? Hell no, but will she be able to stand up to a girl who has no MA at all? Will she be better off than nothing? I'd like to think so, but I'm not sure.
    Well, to answer your question, most McDojo students of any variety will never reap the full benefits of martial arts training because they stand around too much listening to a fatass in pajamas talk about humility which he doesn't have. He doesn't have humility because he didn't get beaten up enough. He didn't seek out those ass whippings, take them, overcome them, get better and then hand out his own beatings. THAT is fucking enlightenment. And that particular flavor of enlightenment can't be found on a soccer field or tennis court, either. It is unique to combat sports.

    There will be a self defense benefit to karate but it will be extremely limited. The most valuable thing she'll learn is how to throw a punch and hopefully avoid one occasionally. Maybe that meets the self defense goals you have for her. Maybe not.

  4. #14
    hungryjoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJim520 View Post
    Why cant you achieve respect, discipline, honor, confidence etc. through crotty or TKD, or soccer or basketball? If you are competing and succeeding against other people who are playing whatever game/sport (as long as you're all playing by the same rules) what difference does the real world application make. Tiger Woods is a legend, Serena Williams is a goddess, but their chosen sports have no practical application outside of their chosen sport (though I guess a golf club or tennis racket might make a decent weapon in a bar fight).

    My reluctance is that one of the goals her mother and I have for her is self defense. It's not at the top of the list, but it's on the list. Is having a bit of crappy karate going to be a help or hindrance in that respect? Will she be able to fight off a boy who has wrestling/BJJ experience? Hell no, but will she be able to stand up to a girl who has no MA at all? Will she be better off than nothing? I'd like to think so, but I'm not sure.
    Jim,

    I see your point but think Devil is correct at this given time in your daughter's life.

    My wife has worked at a one of a kind, in this state, school for special needs children for more than 25 years. Approximately 2/3 of the kids have special needs with the rest typical. Ages range from infant to 21 years. My daughters, both typical, have both grown up there, attending until starting school and during the summers. Place is quite close to my house so I've watched and have known many over the years.

    It sounds like you've found a good fit at the place she's at now. Consider giving her the chance to learn what she can there, acquiring muscle memory, fitness and self confidence.

    Having said this, I also understand your concern about her self defense. I've watched many of these young girls grow from children into their teens and eventually leave as young women. Their well being has been a personal concern given the chance some dirt bag would take advantage of them as adults.

    Having worked with a program in the past that taught a kids martial arts program, we focused and taught from two perspectives- against bullies and abduction. I won't go into the differences here other than to say with abduction it was mainly situational awareness, stranger danger and getting attention above all else if there was an attempted abduction. Your daughter could possibly use this karate experience as a starting point. Later, with some experience behind her, I'd recommend a judo or bjj program more than any other self defense art. Why? The ground game. I'm stating this with a fairly extensive past background in karate and father of two daughters who took this path.

  5. #15

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    Thanks guys. Good advice from the above two posts.

  6. #16

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    re: Judo...

    My ex has a friend with a kid with Aspergers. He does Judo and he's apparently quite successful (not sure if what that means given his condition), so the ex suggested that sport when we agreed the MMA gym wasn't the best fit. I thought (based on my extremely limited Judo training at my MMA gym) that it would be too challenging for her. I think she can do anything given a private instructor with a lot of patience, but if she was put in a typical class (and I have no idea what options we have for kids Judo in town) I think she'd struggle just as badly as she did with BJJ/MT.

    I do agree that Judo or BJJ (or wrestling) has the most practical application, especially for a female, but I'm concerned about her ability to learn in a typical environment. Maybe I'm projecting some of my own frustration with Judo. I'm old and fat and falling down and standing up 100 times a night was not fun for me. But I think she'd struggle learning all the Japanese names for the throws and struggle with the sequence of steps to successfully perform a throw.

    Last night was great. She can throw a back fist. She can perform a side kick. She can (sort of) perform a roundhouse kick. That's all they did. In MT class she was supposed to do jab-cross-hook-cross-switch kick. That was too much for her, and I think she'd have a similar struggle in Judo. And I have no idea how she'd like being an Uke.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJim520 View Post
    re: Judo...

    My ex has a friend with a kid with Aspergers. He does Judo and he's apparently quite successful (not sure if what that means given his condition), so the ex suggested that sport when we agreed the MMA gym wasn't the best fit. I thought (based on my extremely limited Judo training at my MMA gym) that it would be too challenging for her. I think she can do anything given a private instructor with a lot of patience, but if she was put in a typical class (and I have no idea what options we have for kids Judo in town) I think she'd struggle just as badly as she did with BJJ/MT.

    I do agree that Judo or BJJ (or wrestling) has the most practical application, especially for a female, but I'm concerned about her ability to learn in a typical environment. Maybe I'm projecting some of my own frustration with Judo. I'm old and fat and falling down and standing up 100 times a night was not fun for me. But I think she'd struggle learning all the Japanese names for the throws and struggle with the sequence of steps to successfully perform a throw.

    Last night was great. She can throw a back fist. She can perform a side kick. She can (sort of) perform a roundhouse kick. That's all they did. In MT class she was supposed to do jab-cross-hook-cross-switch kick. That was too much for her, and I think she'd have a similar struggle in Judo. And I have no idea how she'd like being an Uke.
    A genuine question here. How is she going to learn kata in karate if she struggles learning punch/kick combos? That's a lot of **** to remember and keep straight in your head.

  8. #18
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    For your daughter (and frankly for most young kids) it doesn't matter one whit whether she's learning proper fighting technique or not. Or for that matter whether she is learning karate or badminton. If she's having fun, getting some exercise, practising some coordinated movement that is of general benefit to her, maybe making friends in class? It's all good.

  9. #19
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    Speaking as a parent: another legitimate concern is whether or not *she* enjoys the classes. Forget about making excuses, "oh she can't do this or that." If she's having fun and is engaged, your opinion of whether or not she's able should take a back seat. It's difficult to step away from our young ones and let them try their own wings.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJim520 View Post
    My ex-wife decided to put our kid (and possibly herself) in martial arts. Of course I'm extremely supportive. Naturally she did not want to join my gym and I totally understand and respect that.

    She found a different MMA gym that appears to be a non-Bullshido school. So far, so good.

    Our kid is developmentally delayed. She's 11 years old, in a 13 year old's body but has a 7 year old's brain. The school mom found was extremely welcoming and understanding of her situation and gave us several free trial classes without doing the hard 1-year-contract sales push. The owner even invited me to drop in and do his classes from time to time. Very cool welcoming people.

    Unfortunately in the 3 classes we tried (1 BJJ and 2 MT) there were about 30 kids in class and only 1 or 2 instructors. Our daughter was at a complete loss compared to the other noobs and even the 5 year olds that had been training for a few weeks/months. At the end of the day she said she had fun, but in my opinion she wasn't learning anything valuable as her technique was horrible and the instructor didn't have nearly enough time to work with her. I tried assisting but she didn't like taking direction from dad (in many ways she is a typical pre-teen).

    So, tonight she had her first Karate class. There were only 16 or so kids (including 3-4 other first timers) and two instructors. I explained the situation up front and they were also very accommodating. One instructor (4th degree BB) lead the class and the other (his son, 3rd degree BB) went around helping those in need. Of course my daughter was the most in-need and she got the most attention. And it worked! She actually learned (as much as can be expected in a 1 hour lesson) the shitty karate sideways stance, backhand lead hand punch, side kick, etc. techniques.

    I love that she's getting some physical exercise, learning to follow instructions, participating with other kids, discipline, etc. I hate that she's learning shitty bullshido fighting technique.

    Man I'd love to spar with these black belt instructors in MT or MMA rules.
    So exactly how much "technique" do you expect your daughter to learn "at the end of the day" ? I will say that the teacher/student ratio is way out of whack at the first school, and needs to be fixed or none of the kids will be getting any decent physical education.

    I think your expectations regarding self defense are a bit out of kilter as well. Kids need to work on basic athletic ability: Agility, balance, coordination, speed, and have fun doing it, so they develop a life-long habit of exercise and healthy living, and build a base for further athletic activity to whatever level they want.

    What you need to find is a place with that sort of emphasis...building basic athletic ability while having fun, built into the martial arts training. In a way, the MA training is an adjunct, rather than the primary purpose, or maybe "delivery system" is a better way to think about it.
    Falling for Judo since 1980

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