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  1. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post
    Yeah, I think so. I don't remember the whole discussion. It was basically about cross training and building overall athleticism, right? Which I agree with.

    But it seems to me that if for instance, the goal is to help a child prepare for MMA competition as an adult that the cross training and general athleticism can be addressed while keeping the eye on the prize. If a kid is doing wrestling, boxing, judo, jiu jitsu, muay thai, eventually weight training, cardio, whatever.....is that not still cross training? Is it not building an overall athlete? It is, but it's done in a way that is smart and goal oriented. Maybe, anyway. That's just one man's perspective.

    Yes, and that a majority of champs didn't even start until 12yo.
    I think there are some sports that are better for developing certain attributes early.
    No true team sports in your list above for example.
    Sport is for more than just sport's sake after all.
    Being too goal oriented, too early is actually the pitfall itself.

  2. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post
    I get that. I can understand the benefits of diverse training. What I'm getting at is this.....why can't diverse training at an early age be designed to prepare for a specific sport instead of just throwing darts while blindfolded and seeing what sticks?
    Because physical education has it's own merits above and beyond physical prowess.
    I'm sure you're incorporating that but gross motor skills, body awareness, teamwork, coachability, and so on can get lost in "getting better at xyz".
    You don't want to develop a good or even great child athlete, you want to develop a good adult human being.
    If they decide to pursue being a great athlete you've given them all the attributes they need by then anyhow, without the baggage.
    The variety is what develops a more complete, healthy, self motivated athlete.
    Starting over in new stuff all the time is great at a young age.

  3. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raycetpfl View Post
    My little girl doesn't wanna do anything but hip-hop dance and jits. I am certainly not gonna force her to play baseball or volleyball. I think as long as you keep a kids over well being in mind there really isn't a wrong answer.
    I would never advocate forcing a kid to do any sport they don't want to participate in. I think that's cruel.

    But on the other hand, I believe that sometimes when you see someone who is truly heads and shoulders above their peers it's because all those things came together just right. Focused training, enthusiasm from the child, determination, desire, the whole nine yards. That seems to me like it may be how you can occasionally manage to catch lighting in a bottle and end up with a Tiger Woods or Lebron James or whatever.

    They're the rarities obviously and again, that's my point. I'm talking about greatness and how it can be achieved.

  4. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raycetpfl View Post
    My "little" girl is still growing at 13 and is about 5'9 at last check. She did gymnastics a little bit but I certainly knew the Olympics were never gonna be in her future by using a height calculator at a young age.
    Of course.

  5. #135

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChenPengFi View Post
    Early: gymnastics, track and field, swimming
    Late: baseball, golf, football, long distance triathlons


    This is pretty typical of what happens with early specialization:


    I see it in surfing all the time.
    The kids pushed too hard and too early burn out.
    Ftr the winning-est surfer in history, by a huge margin, won his last world title at 39.
    His older brother burned out early and had the greater pressure as a kid.
    I think the problem is, parents remember all of their hardships, regrets, and failures,
    and push an adult level sense of urgency on to their kids,
    and in particular with Jiu-Jitsu often try to live vicariously through the kids.

    When we see the Dad acting like a crazy person at the 6 year old soccer game
    because his kid is twitter-bugging instead of giving it full competitive focus,
    that is silly, sometimes annoying, but not really harmful.

    But, I cannot tell you how many times that I have been refereeing a Jiu-Jitsu tournament
    where some parent was yelling at his six year old to hurt the other kid,
    and scaring the hell out of both kids in the process.

    Meanwhile, in many cases this screaming Dad either has a couch potato build
    or a druggie criminal build,
    and does not seem to get much exercise let alone train themselves.

    After a couple decades of seeing that in Jiu-Jitsu kids training,
    And not seeing any lasting gains on the kids that were pushed that hard
    because the drop out rate / burn out rate gets huge,
    even a dummy like me can tell
    that what the kid really wanted was the ice cream time with Dad after the practice or tournament.

    And, sadly, I am not sure that a lot of the kids who get pushed that hard at young ages
    actually get that ice cream with Dad that often.
    In many cases the time spent from that kind of Dad is watching the practice,
    and criticizing the kid if they got beat.
    To be vulgar, there are lot of pig parents out there.

    And then you realize that there is a very large money machine out there,
    pushing for profit kids MMA style fights now,
    and pushing submission holds into kids grappling tournaments just to differentiate their marketing offer
    from the much less expensive Judo and Wrestling tournaments,
    and after that your mind starts to put those things together,
    then every young kid you see walk off the mats in a sling makes you feel a little dirty
    about even passively condoning the entire machine.

    Because the value to the kid at being thrust in the machine by their parents
    below the age 12, both competitively and with an adult level intensity,
    probably does not really benefit the kid under 12
    as much as spending several hours a week doing foundational skill building
    and fun centric sports activities.

    I'm not advocating participation medals, quite the opposite.
    Include real competition activities in the right dose.
    And let kids know honestly when they achieved something, and when they didn't.
    But, putting kids under 12 in to train and compete like grown adults might not be the best thing for the kids.
    I don't think it is, actually.
    Last edited by WFMurphyPhD; 5/26/2016 2:52pm at .

  6. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChenPengFi View Post
    Early: gymnastics, track and field, swimming
    Late: baseball, golf, football, long distance triathlons


    This is pretty typical of what happens with early specialization:


    I see it in surfing all the time.
    The kids pushed too hard and too early burn out.
    Ftr the winning-est surfer in history, by a huge margin, won his last world title at 39.
    His older brother burned out early and had the greater pressure as a kid.
    How do you define those early vs. late development sports, though? What are the parameters? That's the question I'm asking.

    Burn out can occur in any sport. BKR brought up burn out and seemed to imply that it was more likely in Judo and some other sports than in other sports. The burn out discussion was linked to the early/late development discussion. I'm asking why.

    I have at no point argued against building a broader athletic base. I have only offered some alternatives to what that broader training may look like.

  7. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChenPengFi View Post
    Early: gymnastics, track and field, swimming
    Late: baseball, golf, football, long distance triathlons


    This is pretty typical of what happens with early specialization:


    I see it in surfing all the time.
    The kids pushed too hard and too early burn out.
    Ftr the winning-est surfer in history, by a huge margin, won his last world title at 39.
    His older brother burned out early and had the greater pressure as a kid.
    I hope this graph is wrong. My eldest is going to Junior Olympics Nationals, next month - second year in a row. Synchronized swimming. She chose the sport, we just support her effort. There's no overt push, but it would be financially nice to see her get a college scholarship from her efforts. At 10.5 years old, she regularly trains in excess of 10 hours a week, which puts her well to the left of the "near elite," curve. The older girls train a lot more. The team has produced Olympians, though not as many as teams elsewhere in the country - I can't speak to those teams' training schedules.

  8. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post
    .
    They're the rarities obviously and again, that's my point. I'm talking about greatness and how it can be achieved.
    Silly Buddhist idea. Personal Greatness cant ever be reached only pursued.

    If mma is the goal it needs to be 100% about the journey otherwise I doubt they can very happy people. Once it gets to that top 10 in the world level there is just so much luck involved.

  9. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    OK, I get where you are coming from more clearly now.

    I may have to do some research in my coaching manuals.
    I don't know about Japan and how early their top ranked guys start doing Judo, and if they do, how much that causal relationship there is between those two variables.

    The IJF has current world rankings for men and women at: http://www.intjudo.eu/fo-Rankingir

    I parsed through some stuff to get this, number of top 10 ranked judoka in the world by country. That would be one criteria for the level of Judo in a given country. You could normalize for population and such, too.

    Japan has the most at 13. I'm sure I could find number of WC or Olympic medals as well, by country and by year. This is for men only, all weight divisions.

    Rank Country #Top 10
    2 JPN 13
    2 JPN 13
    3 JPN 13
    4 JPN 13
    4 JPN 13
    5 JPN 13
    5 JPN 13
    6 JPN 13
    7 JPN 13
    7 JPN 13
    7 JPN 13
    8 JPN 13
    10 JPN 13
    1 GEO 7
    2 GEO 7
    3 GEO 7
    4 GEO 7
    5 GEO 7
    8 GEO 7
    9 GEO 7
    1 KOR 5
    1 KOR 5
    1 KOR 5
    2 KOR 5
    8 KOR 5
    1 MGL 5
    3 MGL 5
    6 MGL 5
    9 MGL 5
    9 MGL 5
    1 FRA 4
    3 FRA 4
    8 FRA 4
    10 FRA 4
    2 RUS 4
    5 RUS 4
    6 RUS 4
    10 RUS 4
    9 UZB 4
    9 UZB 4
    9 UZB 4
    10 UZB 4
    2 AZE 3
    5 AZE 3
    6 AZE 3
    6 BRA 2
    7 BRA 2
    8 BRA 2
    1 GER 2
    2 GER 2
    3 HUN 2
    6 HUN 2
    4 KAZ 2
    8 KAZ 2
    4 NED 2
    5 NED 2
    7 SWE 2
    7 SWE 2
    3 UKR 2
    4 UKR 2
    8 BEL 1
    10 BLR 1
    4 BUL 1
    3 CAN 1
    10 CUB 1
    6 CZE 1
    9 EGY 1
    5 ISR 1
    10 TUN 1
    7 UAE 1
    Falling for Judo since 1980

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  10. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raycetpfl View Post
    If mma is the goal it needs to be 100% about the journey.
    I agree.

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