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    A series of blogs on iron palm

    CMA peeps,

    I've been doing iron palm on and off for a couple years now, and I am always on the lookout for writings, videos, data etc. I recently found a series of blogs from a website "xingyimax.com" which include some chinese documentaries about iron palm. They show training, breaking, tricks and techniques, and doctors examine and xray some iron palm guys. Its pretty cool. A link to the first blog in the series is below:

    http://xingyimax.com/iron-palm-bear-palm/

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    Those are imo extreme cases of iron palm training, and quite honestly, maybe not enough jow. There is a line beyond which you just can't use a hand normally anymore....I believe the spectrum of decent iron palm training for MA falls well short of that line. Sure, turn your hands into hard balloons of flesh and bone; if your fingers don't work the right way anymore and you're not fighting for your food, it's a waste of good hand.

    It's easy to understand the swelling that comes from iron palm methods, it's not so evident how important it is to be careful and use liniments liberally.

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    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    Those are imo extreme cases of iron palm training, and quite honestly, maybe not enough jow. There is a line beyond which you just can't use a hand normally anymore....I believe the spectrum of decent iron palm training for MA falls well short of that line. Sure, turn your hands into hard balloons of flesh and bone; if your fingers don't work the right way anymore and you're not fighting for your food, it's a waste of good hand.

    It's easy to understand the swelling that comes from iron palm methods, it's not so evident how important it is to be careful and use liniments liberally.
    I'm right there with you and agree with you completely. I use the method Dale Dugas teaches in his DVD, slow and gradual, not hundreds of strikes per day. My hands look the same as they ever have. I haven't tried to break any bricks though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lordbd View Post
    I'm right there with you and agree with you completely. I use the method Dale Dugas teaches in his DVD, slow and gradual, not hundreds of strikes per day. My hands look the same as they ever have. I haven't tried to break any bricks though.
    The idea is the same as how the Japanese and other cultures fold steel over and over to make the highest quality swords.

    It's not rushing it or doing it fastest or hardest that makes it strong, it's a lot of careful repetition.

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    I am a Doctor of Oriental Medicine/Acupuncture Physician and have to have hands that work.

    I can break 4 inches of concrete, coconuts and people.

    Who cares if I can break 12 inches of concrete.

    You can take this training and do some insane things. emphasis on insane. Those people who have clown hands have hands that do not function as hands, but as hammers.

    I dont need one of those.








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    Quote Originally Posted by Mor Sao View Post
    I am a Doctor of Oriental Medicine/Acupuncture Physician and have to have hands that work.

    I can break 4 inches of concrete, coconuts and people.

    Who cares if I can break 12 inches of concrete.

    You can take this training and do some insane things. emphasis on insane. Those people who have clown hands have hands that do not function as hands, but as hammers.

    I dont need one of those.
    I think it's pretty exciting to be able to hit a bag full of steel shot with normal-looking hands. Can't wait for your book to come out this month!

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    The goal of tid sa jeurng is not what a lot of people think, being able to break things. It's more about being able to hit things without getting broken.

    Most people would fracture their hand trying to break a coconut the way Dale does.

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    An Interesting Pain Study for IP Practitioners

    Not to necro this thread, but I just ran across an interesting study that is relevant for IP ppl of all types. As part of my intern duties I do a lot of work and some research related to chronic and acute pain. As I was doing some reading I stumbled upon this research study where they compared a control group to a group of southern mantis kung-fu practitioners who do "inurement" exercises. They don't go into much detail about the exact nature of the inurement exercises. They have a small sample-size. Their results do not completely support inurement exercises as a panacea for pain, but they did have some interesting findings regarding possible mechanisms for how beating yourself up in a systematic way might change pain perceptions. Abstract and methods are pasted below; link to article that may or may not work is also pasted:


    Abstract

    We were interested in how continuous painful stimulation which is performed as inurement exercises in some Asian martial arts influences sensory and pain perception. Therefore, we examined 15 Kung Fu disciples before and after a 14 day period with repetitive inurement exercises and measured sensory and pain thresholds and intensities in both the trigeminal and the peripheral (peroneal nerve) region. The results of the probands were compared to those of 15 healthy control subjects who were performing sports without painful stimulation during this period. The probands showed a significantly decreased trigeminal pain intensity after repetitive electrical stimulation whereas the control subjects did not show any changes of sensory or pain perception during the study period. This suggests a change of central sensitisation and inhibitory control mechanisms in the nociceptive spinal or cerebral pathways by inurement exercises. In addition, pain thresholds showed an (not significant) increase after the study period whereas the control subjects showed a significant decrease of pain thresholds. In summary, our pilot study suggests that inurement exercises, i.e. repetitive painful stimulation, over a period of 14 days might induce changes of pain perception resulting in trigeminal pain habituation and higher pain thresholds.

    2. Methods

    2.1. Subjects

    We included 30 healthy male and female subjects. Exclusion criteria were the presence of neurological or psychiatric diseases as well as regular intake of analgesics or other medication. The female subjects were not allowed to use oral contraceptives to avoid influence of this medication on pain perception. The age range of the subjects was between 18 and 40 years. They were excluded from participation in further pain studies. We only included right-handed subjects. All subjects gave informed consent to participate in the study. The study was approved by the Ethics Committee of the Faculty of Medicine, University of Münster. The probands (n = 15) were martial arts disciples recruited from the Kung Fu Training group of the exercises and sports club (TSC) Münster. These probands practise Kung Fu one to two times a week for a time of 1.5 to 2 h over a period of months to years. The control subjects (n = 15) performed any other sports excluding martial arts and excluding exercises with painful stimulation. They practised their sports in an equal extent as the probands. We matched sex, age, and body mass index of the probands and the control subjects. We recorded the duration of martial arts training in the probands additionally. For all subjects, we defined a study period of 14 days with an experimental measurement on day 1 and day 14 of this period. The probands had to perform inurement exercises during this time, the control subjects continued their normal sports training.

    2.2. Inurement exercises

    The probands applied a daily training of modified Kung Fu exercises which they could do at home without a partner. They received a wooden stick covered with foamed material to emulate an arm or a leg. The probands inured their forearms and lower legs daily for 2 min each by punching them with the wooden stick with moderate power to avoid injuries. We demonstrated the inurement exercises during the first measurement session.

    2.3. Measurement of nociception

    For the experimental measurement of pain thresholds, we applied cutaneous electrical rectangular stimuli by a bipolar saline-soaked surface stimulation electrode. Electrical stimuli were generated by a constant current stimulator (Counterpoint Mk2, Dantec, Copenhagen, Denmark). A single stimulus lasted 1 ms. Repetitive stimuli, so-called trains, consisted of 10 single stimuli at 0.5 Hz. We defined the sensible threshold at the intensity when a subject specified any perception. We defined the pain threshold at the intensity when a subject specified a displeasing perception. The subjects evaluated the pain intensity by a visual analogue scala (VAS) with an adjustment from 0 (no pain) to 10 (strongest pain).

    2.4. Procedures

    All subjects were examined in a lying position in the same room with equal temperature and lightning conditions after a rest period. After looking for the anterior tibial muscle and the masseter muscle, the skin over these muscles was cleaned with alcohol and the electrode pads were placed over the muscle. All measures were performed at the right (i.e., dominant) side. The first measurement was at the anterior tibial muscle (i.e., area supplied by the peroneal nerve, further called peripheral stimulation). The amperage was escalated by steps of 0.1 mA until the subjects communicated a perception. After reaching the sensitive threshold, we continued escalating the amperage until the subjects communicated an unpleasant painful feeling. This was noted as the pain threshold in mA. Hereafter, we set a single stimulus with threefold pain threshold strength which the probands had to evaluate on the VAS. Afterwards, we applied a so-called train in an intensity of one and a half times of the pain threshold. After a break of 30 s, we applied a second train. The subjects had to evaluate the last of the ten impulses of each train on the VAS. All measures were done thrice and the mean value was considered as the respective threshold or intensity. After the first pass at the anterior tibial muscle region, we repeated all measures at the masseter muscle region (further called trigeminal region).



    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...22510X08003274

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    cool.








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    Quote Originally Posted by Mor Sao View Post
    cool.
    To elaborate just a bit on their results/conclusions, although I find this study pretty exciting, it is pretty weak evidence for the effectiveness of inurement methods.

    1) They found a whole lot of nothing on many of their measures.

    2) However, "The major significant finding is that the probands but not the control subjects showed a significantly lower pain intensity after train stimulation in the trigeminal (but not in the peripheral) region." This implies a more central/spinal sensitization change as opposed to something peripheral (i.e. the way pain signals are handled in the spinal cord have changed as opposed to a deadening of nerves in the peripheral regions where you are actually doing the inurement practice). This is my best interpretation of this stuff based on my limited knowledge of pain physiology.

    3) Some bright points however:

    a) this was a pilot-type study with a small sample-size, and multiple analyses run with bonferroni corrections. So it was probably underpowered. The fact that they found anything under those conditions is cool.

    b) it seems like they took kung-fu people who WERE ALREADY TRAINING and then did a 2-week pre/post measurement. That is a pretty tiny intervention especially if some of these individuals were doing inurement before-hand. I think that weakens the within-groups stats they did, and yet they still found one significant change (described above).

    Hopefully someone follows up on this with more research.

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