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  1. nointro is online now

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    Posted On:
    7/17/2014 7:09am


     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Getting more leverage in koshi-waza

    I should point out at the start that I'm not a judoka myself but I'm seeking opinions and tips on behalf of my son who's been doing Judo for about 2 years now and has has been doing level 1 competitions for the past year.

    At the most recent competition we attended last weekend I noticed one player who won his pool executing multiple ippon and morote seoi-nages with his back in an arched position just before performing the throw. His opponent was a little shorter than him so I suspect the arched back may have made it easier for him to get his hips into position.

    I did ask my son to try some uchikomi on me adapting his hip throws with the arched back approach. To me it felt like a stronger throw as he was less reliant on using the sleeve pull to get me moving and the combined action of straightening his back whilst bending forward produced a lot more of an unbalancing force at my hip level.

    Strangely though, I've not seen any online demonstrations of koshi-waza using an arched back. All of the demos I've seen so far seem to mirror the classic examples in text books.

    So my question is, does arching the back help with hip throws or should it only be used in specific scenarios?
  2. CrackFox is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/17/2014 8:25am

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     Style: Judo, BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Seoi nage is a shoulder throw, not a hip throw. (koshi waza)

    Anyway, what do you mean by an arched back? I'm trying to visualise this, but it's not working for me. Can you describe how this different to the standard way of doing things?

    Sent from my ZX Spectrum using TapTalk.
  3. CrackFox is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/17/2014 8:38am

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     Style: Judo, BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Btw, you generally want to avoid flexing or extending your spinal joints when performing an explosive movement like a judo throw.

    Aside from the risk of injury, the muscles in there are geared up for stability not explosive pulls and aren't very strong in that respect.

    Sent from my ZX Spectrum using TapTalk.
  4. Ming Loyalist is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/17/2014 8:41am

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     Style: Judo, Hung Family Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    my instructors have emphasized a *straight* back. i have a tendency to round my back which is very *very* wrong.

    the only time i have been told to arch my back is at the end of a seoi nage, once uke is on the ground, in order to either get the ippon or secure osaekomi.
    "Face punches are an essential character building part of a martial art. You don't truly love your children unless you allow them to get punched in the face." - chi-conspiricy
    "When I was a little boy, I had a sailor suit, but it didn't mean I was in the Navy." - Mtripp on the subject of a 5 year old karate black belt
    "Without actual qualifications to be a Zen teacher, your instructor is just another roundeye raping Asian culture for a buck." - Errant108
    "Seriously, who gives a **** what you or Errant think? You're Asian males, everyone just ignores you, unless you're in a krotty movie." - new2bjj
  5. NeilG is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/17/2014 9:45am


     Style: Kendo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sounds like he is having trouble with the fitting. Most beginners don't get in tight enough. If you spin in tight and low enough, uke goes over pretty easily.
  6. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/17/2014 1:52pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CrackFox View Post
    Seoi nage is a shoulder throw, not a hip throw. (koshi waza)

    Anyway, what do you mean by an arched back? I'm trying to visualise this, but it's not working for me. Can you describe how this different to the standard way of doing things?

    Sent from my ZX Spectrum using TapTalk.
    No, it's a Te Waza, (hand/arm technique), to be accurate.

    I, like you, are having a hard time visualizing exactly what the OP means.

    So here is a image to show the terminology for spinal range of motion.


    Entering a throw (Seoi Nage, for example) with spinal flexion (bent forward) is a serious (and pretty common) flaw. You need good contact of the upper back (as Seoi Nage is literally "back carry throw) with uke.

    On the other hand, entering a throw with spinal extension (bending backwards) is a flaw as well. Tori is pretty easily stopped and/or countered in that case.

    Now, bending to the side..


    Is something you do see people doing in Uchikomi. Again, depending on exactly when/where/how its' done, that is usually a flaw. However, once good contact between uke and tori is made, tori may bend/twist etc. to conform his body shape to that of uke.

    So, here is a judoka who is generally acknowledged as being an expert at Seoi Nage. To the OP, do you see what you saw at the tournament in question by the young judoka? As usual, there is flexion and extension of the spine, but nothing extreme, and all at the proper place and time. Mr. Nomura pretty much maintains an upright posture.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  7. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/17/2014 5:06pm

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     Style: Judo

    5
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Is it just me, or is whatever this kid was doing in contest or whether we're discussing Koshi waza, Te waza or even Kansetsu waza, irrelevant.

    What we have here is someone who doesn't practice Judo intending to try and coach his kid Judo, despite the kid receiving instruction from presumably qualified coaches. Someone in that position, no matter how well intentioned, is in no position to advise a kid on how to correct and or practice their Judo technique.

    This is one of the big problems with what goes wrong with coaching junior Judoka. Parents, who have no idea what they're talking about, who mistakenly believe that sitting in a chair watching a Judo coach teach their kids, somehow imbues them with the same Judo knowledge and ability to 'see Judo' that a qualified Judo coach has.

    You need only take a look at the recent discussions on Uchi mata and O soto gari in the advanced forum, to see that the abiity to 'see Judo' is crucial in being able to diagnose and correct problems. Looking at the videos Blackmonk, very bravely posted, I JudoRatt and other could immediately see where the areas for improvement were. No Judo dad could ever have watched those videos and spotted what we spotted, because you have to actually train, know and coach Judo to be able to 'see Judo' and constructively correct and improve people from an informed perspective.

    I also refer to a pivotal moment for me, matside at the UK university nationals, where my coach and I were watching Tom Reed fight. He said I should fight like Tom Reed did, but what he was advocating I copy I just couldn't see, because I didn't know enough about Judo to process what my eyes were seeing and turn it into something meaningful.

    I was unable to act on his advice, because he could 'see Judo' on a level that I couldn't and so no matter how he tried to articualte it to me, I just couldn't get it. This problem is magnified 100 times over when non practiciting parents try and re-package stuff they're heard a qualified coach tell their children.

    I appreciate the desire to want to help your kid improve and I appreciate the feeling that as a parent you know what is best for your child. In most situations the parent is the absolute best person to impart lessons to their child. However, correcting Judo technique, indeed any MA technique, is one of the very few areas where unless the parent posesses the requisite knowledge, no matter how good their intentions, they really need to take a back seat and rely on the experts they employ to teach their kids the skills they want them to have.

    The best thing you can do to help your kid to improve is to stop trying to teach them stuff you yourself don't understand.

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