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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    I can't agree with your analysis here. He only allows space once maybe twice but there is contact before he starts the throw. While I agree with about his calf contact I don't agree on the placement.

    I used to believe this dogmatic approach until I had a high ranking Judoka show me a different way. I show kids your version I show the adults both versions. I even use a third version.
    Any time you allow space it gives uke a chance to escape.

    As far as the other method, I'd like to hear about it.
    Falling for Judo since 1980

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  2. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    I'm afraid I have to advance a contrary opionion.

    You're right that all too often, in Judo. poor technique becomes codified as dogma.

    However, in this instance we have both Jimmy Pedro and Yasuhiro Yamashita in agreement. They are both hugely experienced and knowlegable Judoka and they are both not afraid to challenge dogma.

    The fact both advocate the same method should be an indication that it is not dogmatic to advocate this approach, rather that it is the approach that will work the most often, for the most people in realistic scenarios.

    This is a fundamental feature of what a lot of people call Judo dogma. Technique X performed in method Y is usually done because for 90% of people that will work 90% of the time. The adaptations are a result of the few rare instances where the canonical methods fail.

    I would put the ball back in your court and say, if you have an alternative method that you believe will work for the majority of people, in the majority of situations then please describe it and provide the supporting instructional images/video. That way blackmonk can make an informed decision on whether your method or tried and tested method works better for him.
    I didn't know we were referencing their approach to Osoto Gari. I use both approaches , as I stated before, and I help identify which one I would use in specific situations. It is usually dependent upon your penetration from your initial step.

    Another problem I have is getting basic beginners to actually get that foot to lift. When I use the high approach first it gets programmed into their body not post the reaping foot. Also an advantage of not reaping from the low end of the calf is a different set of muscle group that forces more of a thrust wedging action rather than a lifting action (which you can still do with the lower reap but it is as apparent).

  3. #53
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    I note Pedro gets his hopping leg at or past uke's leg but you don't. Classic osoto the step is even deeper. The crash mat might be interfering with your footwork.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Not sure what you mean by "pushing away with the hand on the collar". There isn't any need to push uke away from you. Instead, you should be holding uke close and controlling the head/upper body with your collar hand, whether it is a normal collar grip,high collar grip, or a deeper version.

    Pushing away is a common flaw in my experience. Especially in BJJ, where you want/need to maintain control all the way to the ground and presumably end up in some sort of control position (pin).
    I think what cereus is getting at isn't necessarily implicit in the vocabulary "pushing away"... I think what he means is the act of balance-breaking, where you bring uke's weight over the hip with your collar grip, like in the position circled in green here. He's concerned about the weight being over that knee, while the knee is briefly in place, and then reaped.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Most potentially injurious pressure you may feel there, while being attacked, can be alleviated with good ukemi. I know I've saved many body parts on many occasions by falling correctly, especially against inexperienced, spazzy partners.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Any time you allow space it gives uke a chance to escape.
    This. Not directed at Omega and you guys' debate there. Just an excellent concept in general.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    I'm not sure if this is a result of tiredness or whether the shoes make it harder to do, or both.

    Second point, which again may be down to tiredness/shoes/both...
    Fatigue, and I have very little experience dissecting this throw. I can demonstrate it for belt testing in the most classic and orthodox of methods, but I don't have personal experience with a lot of the little nuances.

    The shoes, however, are like leather socks. There's no restriction of movement.

  7. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Any time you allow space it gives uke a chance to escape.

    As far as the other method, I'd like to hear about it.

    I can't disagree with that, I could only spot it twice though. It's a neither here nor there discussion. As far as that other method maybe that'll be my next video because you've already seen my other variation from the other video I posted.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    I didn't know we were referencing their approach to Osoto Gari. I use both approaches , as I stated before, and I help identify which one I would use in specific situations. It is usually dependent upon your penetration from your initial step.
    My post was meant to have videos by Pedro and Yamashita, but neither seemed to show up.

    Here are the two I was trying to referrence

    Pedro:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqNslie-J68



    Yamashita:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-YEGFemXOo




    Quote Originally Posted by blackmonk View Post
    Fatigue, and I have very little experience dissecting this throw. I can demonstrate it for belt testing in the most classic and orthodox of methods, but I don't have personal experience with a lot of the little nuances.

    The shoes, however, are like leather socks. There's no restriction of movement.
    If I was on rep 95 my O soto would be looking pretty ropey.

    Interesting about the 'shoes' though, wonder if it affects how some of the decent Judoka from Russia and former USSR countries use O soto in Sambo comps. Predictably, searching youtube for "Sambo O soto gari" just turns up Americans doing instructionals and Judo videos.

  9. #59
    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours. Join us... or die
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackmonk View Post
    I think what cereus is getting at isn't necessarily implicit in the vocabulary "pushing away"... I think what he means is the act of balance-breaking, where you bring uke's weight over the hip with your collar grip, like in the position circled in green here. He's concerned about the weight being over that knee, while the knee is briefly in place, and then reaped.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	cV72chw.jpg 
Views:	34 
Size:	15.9 KB 
ID:	16150

    Most potentially injurious pressure you may feel there, while being attacked, can be alleviated with good ukemi. I know I've saved many body parts on many occasions by falling correctly, especially against inexperienced, spazzy partners.
    I spazzed out in my response, and was thinking of a normal aka "classical" Osoto Gari. The "hooking/cross body" version is different, of course.
    Falling for Judo since 1980

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  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post

    Interesting about the 'shoes' though, wonder if it affects how some of the decent Judoka from Russia and former USSR countries use O soto in Sambo comps. Predictably, searching youtube for "Sambo O soto gari" just turns up Americans doing instructionals and Judo videos.
    That's an interesting question. I have seen plenty in person, at both the world championships that I competed in. My friend Aleksander has won that cup twice at 62kg with osoto gari, but his osoto is from a seoi nage-type grip... It's his tokui waza. Usually his right hand has their left lapel, and he shoots his left hand underneath his own lapel grip.

    I saw a couple of kids from Switzerland get hammered at this year's cup, one of which took a pretty wicked osoto gari from a Russian. He was smaller than me, competing at 74kg, so he was a dwarf compared to everyone else. His feet scraped the ceiling on that osoto.

    Again, good question. More often than not, I see sambo players do it ken-ken style, but I see that in judo, as well. Most of the good international sambo players began as international judoka, so there isn't much dissonance there.

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