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  1. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/05/2014 5:07pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    On the leg they're reaping.
    I have to admit I've never heard of that teaching cue before on Osoto Gari. I'll have to try it out.
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  2. blackmonk is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/05/2014 5:12pm

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    In that above Ono video, he reaps and looks "through" the throw, as in underneath and behind him, which seems to facilitate the roll-through.

    I did that the other day for my speed drilling, and I liked it, but I don't know if that's what you were getting at or not.
  3. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/05/2014 5:14pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    O soto gari is my tokuiwaza, so here's my two penneth.

    The classical practicing entry is usually done wrong, it's done wrong because people line up so tori's left foot is opposite uke's right and vice versa, tori then steps diagonally left or right, depending on which is their dominant hand to start the technique. This sends their body off in the wrong direction and ruins hand action.

    When practicing standard O soto uchikomi always start offset from your partner, so your entry step is pretty much straight forward



    This also applies to randori. It is almost impossible to throw a competent opponent with uke and tori both having standard sleeve and lapel grips when you're face on.

    If you're offset from uke then a canonical O soto gari can work, but is best done using action re-action as a follow up to a strong and genuie Ko uchi gari or Sasae tsuri komi ashi attack



    The most common competition and randori entry is done from kenka yotsu when tori has his right hand in a controlling position on uke's collar and left hand in a controlling position on uke's sleeve end.



    From this position the key points are to keep uke's sleeve pinned towards the ground, maintain hopping momentum at a rugh 45 degree angle from their right leg from tori's perspective and a strong driving tsurite action to break their balance over their right leg, which is pinned to the mat by the combination of the downward pressure on the sleeve and the driving/reaping action of the leg/tsurite hand.

    The sleeve is probably the most important aspect in this situation, if you don't have that sleeve control your hopping driving O soto is not going to be as effective. Uke will either turn out for a lower score, break the technique or at worst counter for a score.

    If you can't get dominant control of the sleeve, if for example, you have double lapel or your opponent doesn't have a sleeve or gripping rules don't allow your to achieve a dominant sleeve grip. Then the attacking methodology changes.

    In this scenario emphasis needs to be on controlling uke's head and using your lapel/collar grip to drive them over the reaped leg thus pinning their weight on it, whilst hopping/driving into the canonical position at which point sleeve control becomes less important and the control over the head and upper body becomes paramount.

    Note when I say emphasis it is meant to mean that the two different approaches require more on one than the other, not that sleeve control is less important than head control. For a really good O soto sleeve control and head control should be equally important, but in the slightly different contest versions the weighting of the emphasis tends to shift slightly.
    Isn't lining up offset (which I understand the reason for) akin to starting out "t'ed up"?

    The hard thing in Osoto Gari is to get into that offset position against a resisting opponent, same as to get into the "t'ed up" position for forward throws.

    I've found that how and where exactly I step or move depends greatly on relative size of myself to uke, weight, height, gripping situation, and all that (in order to get uke at enough of a disadvantage to attempt the throw. So how exactly I use my sleeve hand and head control varies quite a bit.

    The "generic" cross-body Osoto Gari gets around some of that by pinning uke down with the hooking leg and then adapting from there to what/how uke reacts. Still requires the other elements, but the whole need to get offset tends to be diminished.
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  4. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/07/2014 4:23pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackmonk View Post
    In that above Ono video, he reaps and looks "through" the throw, as in underneath and behind him, which seems to facilitate the roll-through.

    I did that the other day for my speed drilling, and I liked it, but I don't know if that's what you were getting at or not.
    He does at the final part of the throw once he's achieved chest contact. The important point that I think Ben was trying to convey and that I would echo, is that you need to keep a strong posture whilst attacking.

    A lot of O sotos fail because people drop their head too early and lose power. If you watch the Ono video you'll see as he engages and gains chest contact his back is totally straight regardless of where he's looking.

    The best analogy I can think of, which probably won't mean much to an American is scrummaging. The way as a front row forward you need to be able to crouch whilst maintaining a straight back and good body posture.

    An example, look at the straight back and excellent posture well into the heart of the attack, uke is already critically off balanced and on his way to being thrown.



    It's only once uke is thrown that he starts to really look towards the mat to aid with the drive to completion.



    When I'm coaching people on Osoto I tend to tell them to attack from the hips, not the shoulders, this doesn't mean literally hip thrust towards them, obviously. However, I do it to try and get them to consciously not lead with the head, which achieves the real aim of them leading with their chest.

    Be interesting to see some video like in the Uchi mata thread if you're up for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Isn't lining up offset (which I understand the reason for) akin to starting out "t'ed up"?

    The hard thing in Osoto Gari is to get into that offset position against a resisting opponent, same as to get into the "t'ed up" position for forward throws.
    I guess so, in so much as it's a more optimal position to attack than the classic sleeve lapel equal position. As you know, being fully T-ed up happens rarely though it's more of a training tool than a randori tool. This is where I think offset is different, because it's a very real randori position with some very real and effective attacking options - Sasae, Ko uchi, O soto etc...

    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    I've found that how and where exactly I step or move depends greatly on relative size of myself to uke, weight, height, gripping situation, and all that (in order to get uke at enough of a disadvantage to attempt the throw. So how exactly I use my sleeve hand and head control varies quite a bit.

    The "generic" cross-body Osoto Gari gets around some of that by pinning uke down with the hooking leg and then adapting from there to what/how uke reacts. Still requires the other elements, but the whole need to get offset tends to be diminished.
    Yes, size relative to your opponent changes a lot. If I'm fighting really big guys, in contest I'm more adventerous in randori, I rarely attack with O soto as the counter risk is too great. I tend to switch to O uchi/ Sasae as my primary big attacks.

    For me the cross body O soto generally blows the whole offset mechanic out of the water. Once you're in that kenka yotsu position with sleeve end and lapel control then the offsetting thing goes out of the window. However, not so, in my experience, if you have double lapel or lapel and armpit from the kenka yotsu, then you need to do a cross body O soto like Pedro demonstrates where you come in diagonally, but then hop/drive into the canonical offset position.
    Last edited by judoka_uk; 7/07/2014 4:36pm at .
  5. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/07/2014 4:42pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackmonk View Post
    In that above Ono video, he reaps and looks "through" the throw, as in underneath and behind him, which seems to facilitate the roll-through.

    I did that the other day for my speed drilling, and I liked it, but I don't know if that's what you were getting at or not.
    The follow-through of turning the head is part of the finish of the throw, as I pointed out in an earlier post. It happens to more or less of a degree depending exactly on how you end up throwing uke. As far as all of my training has gone, it's SOP for Osoto Gari and many other throws.

    Rotate shoulders and head (to finish), turn inside hip down (close the hip). This all facilitates contact and thus control of uke all the way to the ground. The same elements are in the standard throw with a standing finish, or if you drive into uke and into the ground without rolling through.
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  6. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/07/2014 4:44pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Finally, the experts that I've had instruction from emphasized hooking your heel behind uke knee, especially the outside ridge of the knee. All of them that did it to me put an incredible amount of pressure there which tended to paralyze me in place.
    Re-reading earlier posts: The above is my primary attack point at all times from kenka yotsu. Although I don't claim to be an expert and have no idea if I've ever paralysed someone in position doing it, the outside ridge of the knee is where I aim for when attacking.

    I also only slide/drive my leg down to their ankle if I'm attacking from kenka yotsu with double lapel and or lapel and armpit, in which cases I hop/drive in and round until I'm chest to chest with uke.

    YMMV
  7. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/07/2014 4:49pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    He does at the final part of the throw once he's achieved chest contact. The important point that I think Ben was trying to convey and that I would echo, is that you need to keep a strong posture whilst attacking.

    A lot of O sotos fail because people drop their head too early and lose power. If you watch the Ono video you'll see as he engages and gains chest contact his back is totally straight regardless of where he's looking.

    The best analogy I can think of, which probably won't mean much to an American is scrummaging. The way as a front row forward you need to be able to crouch whilst maintaining a straight back and good body posture.

    An example, look at the straight back and excellent posture well into the heart of the attack, uke is already critically off balanced and on his way to being thrown.



    It's only once uke is thrown that he starts to really look towards the mat to aid with the drive to completion.



    When I'm coaching people on Osoto I tend to tell them to attack from the hips, not the shoulders, this doesn't mean literally hip thrust towards them, obviously. However, I do it to try and get them to consciously not lead with the head, which achieves the real aim of them leading with their chest.

    Be interesting to see some video like in the Uchi mata thread if you're up for it.



    I guess so, in so much as it's a more optimal position to attack than the classic sleeve lapel equal position. As you know, being fully T-ed up happens rarely though it's more of a training tool than a randori tool. This is where I think offset is different, because it's a very real randori position with some very real and effective attacking options - Sasae, Ko uchi, O soto etc...



    Yes, size relative to your opponent changes a lot. If I'm fighting really big guys, in contest I'm more adventerous in randori, I rarely attack with O soto as the counter risk is too great. I tend to switch to O uchi/ Sasae as my primary big attacks.

    For me the cross body O soto generally blows the whole offset mechanic out of the water. Once you're in that kenka yotsu position with sleeve end and lapel control then the offsetting thing goes out of the window. However, not so, in my experience, if you have double lapel or lapel and armpit from the kenka yotsu, then you need to do a cross body O soto like Pedro demonstrates where you come in diagonally, but then hop/drive into the canonical offset position.
    Yes, we are on the same page, as usual. Keeping good posture throughout a throwing action/entry is critical, especially against fully resisting opponents. Those who have done Judo with higher level players (especially Japanese), will notice how strong their posture is throughout their range of grip/move/enter/throw sequence(s).

    That is a point I emphasize very very strongly when teaching. Head needs to be up, and the spine in as natural a position as possible so as to be able to maintain the widest range of motion.

    Obviously, that doesn't always happen. In a sense, tori relative posture and position needs to be sufficiently better than uke to execute a throw. When dealing with skilled opponents, where the margin of error diminishes to practically nil, posture must be excellent to have any chance.
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  8. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/07/2014 4:51pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Re-reading earlier posts: The above is my primary attack point at all times from kenka yotsu. Although I don't claim to be an expert and have no idea if I've ever paralyzed someone in position doing it, the outside ridge of the knee is where I aim for when attacking.

    I also only slide/drive my leg down to their ankle if I'm attacking from kenka yotsu with double lapel and or lapel and armpit, in which cases I hop/drive in and round until I'm chest to chest with uke.

    YMMV
    You don't have to be an expert to know how to do it correctly, just to be able to throw other experts, LOL !

    I've never slid down to the ankle, I should try it though. Osoto wasn't and isn't my go to throw, not that I have much in the way of that anymore, other than various ashi barai.
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  9. blackmonk is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/07/2014 10:40pm

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    To avoid any confusion, please describe to me the ridge of the knee. The kneecap, the area related to the IT bands, hamstring tendon, or what exactly?

    I know this may be unnecessarily specific, but I like perfection.
  10. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/08/2014 11:58am

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackmonk View Post
    To avoid any confusion, please describe to me the ridge of the knee. The kneecap, the area related to the IT bands, hamstring tendon, or what exactly?

    I know this may be unnecessarily specific, but I like perfection.
    I'd say it's the the tendon that connects the Biceps Femoris to the Fibula.


    https://thesebonesofmine.files.wordp...2/03/tibia.gif


    Make sense now? I had to look up the anatomical names LOL.

    That tendon also makes a nice place to hook your toe(s) when doing Hiza Guruma.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
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