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  1. #1

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Gracie Philosophy

    I was wrestling with a new blue belt at BJJ practice last week. I usually enjoy wrestling this guy because he gives me good technique advice and we go pretty slow so I really get to work on my stuff.

    After we had gone a few rounds, he started talking to me about a video he saw and how it has changed his entire style. He said it was the "Gracie Philosophy", I believe. He told me to watch it on youtube.

    Basically, he said that you should just wait in guard, or under someone's side control, or whatever position, until they make a mistake and give you something. He said that I should think about "doing nothing".

    I feel like when I started, that was my mentality, and it got me murdered every time I rolled. Now when I roll, I roll with the aim of pinning the guy, and imposing my "game" on him. Try to make him make a mistake, not just wait for him to goof up.

    The head coach has that same mentality and tries to foster it in us, so I was pretty surprised to hear this guy say that.

    So, my questions:

    1. Has anyone else experienced this sort of thing? I't hasn't happened at Judo (yet), but every once in a while some of the dudes at my BJJ club get really Philosophical, and sometimes it's pretty annoying. (They can all still kick my ass so I'm not knocking their skill at all)

    2. I was trying to find the video he was talking about, and there are tons of Gracie videos. Any idea which one it might be?

  2. #2

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    It's actually a common philosophy. It's more of a game plan where you wait for the other person to make a mistake and you capitalize on it. I used to follow that philosophy decades ago, but it's not a good plan for competition or real life (loaded statement). Great to get your grappling on.

  3. #3

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    Ah. O.k.

    So it's not a GracieTM or whatever.

    I feel like action>reaction (for me at least)

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.HoneyBadger View Post
    Ah. O.k.

    So it's not a GracieTM or whatever.

    I feel like action>reaction (for me at least)
    Fatigue>Submission

  5. #5
    Tenebrous's Avatar
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    I have spent the last few years sliding into this mentality. Nobody taught it to me, or claimed it was a particular philosophy. It worked for a while, mostly because I was a rabid weasel it a thin paper bag, waiting for the perfect opportunity to shred my way out and start gnawing on somebody. The rodent in you can appreciate the metaphor I'm sure.

    But at some point (I think when I had some respiratory problems that made conserving energy a priority) I got a rabies shot. I stared being way, way too calm for this strategy to work, and it started damaging my bottom game. The trade off for stunting what was once my bread and butter attack game, was the ability to hang out defensively, anywhere, and do nothing. Great trade right?

    It's a good way to train, on occasion, but if you make it your whole mission your game is going to go to strange and not so awesome places eventually. I'm just now finding my inner wrathful rodent again, I would have gotten farther just to let him lead the charge in the first place.
    I'm picturing you drooling onto the keyboard as you type, one eye rotating independent of the other as your hands mash the keys. - Sophist

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    Fatigue>Submission
    I meant that for me choosing to attack rather than waiting to react to their attack seems to work out more often than the reverse.

    Are you saying that I'm going to fatigue myself, thus get submitted? Or by being active fatigue him, and submit him?

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebrous View Post
    I have spent the last few years sliding into this mentality. Nobody taught it to me, or claimed it was a particular philosophy. It worked for a while, mostly because I was a rabid weasel it a thin paper bag, waiting for the perfect opportunity to shred my way out and start gnawing on somebody. The rodent in you can appreciate the metaphor I'm sure.

    But at some point (I think when I had some respiratory problems that made conserving energy a priority) I got a rabies shot. I stared being way, way too calm for this strategy to work, and it started damaging my bottom game. The trade off for stunting what was once my bread and butter attack game, was the ability to hang out defensively, anywhere, and do nothing. Great trade right?

    It's a good way to train, on occasion, but if you make it your whole mission your game is going to go to strange and not so awesome places eventually. I'm just now finding my inner wrathful rodent again, I would have gotten farther just to let him lead the charge in the first place.
    I was suffering from some weird chest thing when I started grappling, so that if I applied pressure when in side control, my chest felt like it was going to crack. Definitely changed the way I did things (doesn't hurt anymore though).

    By the way, when I say that I prefer to be active and attack rather than wait for the guy to make a mistake, I don't mean that I'm going bat **** and trying to tear his head off.

    I just mean that I'm (trying to) continually be doing something. Try to sweep, didn't work, go for juji, didn't work, go for omo plata, nope, take the back, etc.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.HoneyBadger View Post
    I meant that for me choosing to attack rather than waiting to react to their attack seems to work out more often than the reverse.

    Are you saying that I'm going to fatigue myself, thus get submitted? Or by being active fatigue him, and submit him?
    I'm not saying you will, I'm saying that's the strategy. Fatigue the person to the point where you can beat him. That's part of the philosophy hence the Gracie Challenge rules.

  9. #9
    W. Rabbit's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This is really just 2,500 year old martial philosophy that works to this day because it's simple truth.

    He who is prudent and lies in wait for an enemy who is not, will be victorious....

    pretend inferiority and encourage his arrogance....

    the opportunity to secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.
    I think the Gracies (particularly Helio) always understood it and taught it, but UFC4's Royce v Dan "the Beast" was when they showed the world how far you can take it.

    Defending yourself without gassing out for 16 minutes, with 260lbs of "Beast" on top of you, and securing a triangle choke in the split second the opportunity presented itself...probably one of the most beautiful applications of Sun Tzu's philosophy I've seen in martial arts, ever. Royce had already beaten various opponents, but it was that fight that showcased the real tactical capabilities of his father's jujutsu.

    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 6/30/2014 12:22pm at .

  10. #10
    goodlun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    UFC4's Royce v Dan "the Beast" was when they showed the world how far you can take it.
    I came here to tell him to watch that fight, but you beat me to it.

    Effective or not I personally find it to be a boring way to fight.
    Of the single rapier fight between valiant men, having both skill, he that is the best wrestler, or if neither of them can wrestle, the strongest man most commonly kills the other, or leaves him at his mercy.
    –George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence

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