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  1. #11
    Tranquil Suit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    This is where I disagree, all these fancy positions and stupid guards and the what not are not some sort of short cut. You need to have good solid fundamentals to make them work. Some white belt that knows only this sort of **** is still going to get rolled up by a black belt. So its just one more layer added to the art. All the basics and fundamentals don't go away because you know how the fancier stuff.

    As far as actual fighting goes, it still just gives you more options which is a good thing. Yeah the worm guard may will not always present itself in a real fight, but if it does it is a really strong position. Same thing with other "sport only" techniques when they do present themselves as being useful its a good idea to have them in your tool chest.

    Yes they are all gimics but they are gimics that high level players use to best other high level players. They are needed to best high level players because at some point more of the same just stops working.
    Quick question: what belt are you?
    go to http://www.bullshido.net/forums/prof...do=editoptions > under Thread Display Options > Number of Posts to Show Per Page: 40

  2. #12

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm going to start looking at sailing knots. Maybe inspiration will come so I can invent a guard.

    Worm guard? Really? Why not Koala guard?

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by DKJr View Post
    This kind of stuff is really effective in sport settings, but average guys don't have the time to learn this and movements that are applicable to NHB/Self Defense.
    Here is the thing about that. You still need a solid base to make this stuff work. You need a decent De La Riva Guard for the worm guard to mean anything and you need good solid fundamentals to make the DLR to work as well.
    The self defense NHB angle is covered pretty well by the basics. If you take a good look at the older NHB stuff, like the early King of the Cage you see basic blue belt level stuff working just fine. The basics work. Gracie combatives is all blue belt level fundamental stuff, and it works well against people who don't train in grappling.

    Quote Originally Posted by DKJr View Post
    I think these movements and techniques are great for beating the top .01% of grapplers wearing a gi under IBJJF rules but come on seriously WTF?
    I think these movements and techniques work well against other grapplers. Bridging that self defense gap between working well against people who don't train in grappling and those who do.

    Quote Originally Posted by DKJr View Post
    Opportunity cost is the issue imo.
    There certainly is some cost. But these fancy things usally take a good solid base to make work. Once you have that good base how much time do you have to spend on it? How much work refining it do you need to spend for a self defense situation? Yes these techniques certainly are sport directed but once you hit that street effective level how much time do you have to dedicate to being street effective?
    How much street effectiveness do you think you lose by exploring the deeper end of grappling? The grappling for the sake of grappling if you will?
    Of the single rapier fight between valiant men, having both skill, he that is the best wrestler, or if neither of them can wrestle, the strongest man most commonly kills the other, or leaves him at his mercy.
    –George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence

  4. #14
    goodlun's Avatar
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    A perfect example is Jeff Glover does all sorts of stupid **** that you wouldn't want to do in the street but do you doubt Jeff Glover's ability to protect himself?

    Do you think him practicing the stuff that make competition exciting some how takes away from his ability to defend himself?

    Of the single rapier fight between valiant men, having both skill, he that is the best wrestler, or if neither of them can wrestle, the strongest man most commonly kills the other, or leaves him at his mercy.
    –George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence

  5. #15
    cualltaigh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarzis View Post
    Worm guard? Really? Why not Koala guard?
    Why not Koala guard?



    Because we don't want anyone to get hurt. That's why.
    Dum spiro, spero.
    Tada gan iarracht.

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by DKJr View Post
    Opportunity cost is the issue imo. This kind of stuff is really effective in sport settings, but average guys don't have the time to learn this and movements that are applicable to NHB/Self Defense. Inevitably they'll favor this as it's incentivized through "winning" in the gym.

    I think these movements and techniques are great for beating the top .01% of grapplers wearing a gi under IBJJF rules but come on seriously WTF?
    I like this post.

    I have really mixed feelings about this whole thing. One of my best friends, who's a really solid competition blue, gets me all the time with these weird gi tie-up things. And I'm a complete gi-tard anyway, so my bias is probably showing here with this whole thing. But yeah, while I don't doubt the effectiveness of these moves, I can't help being feel frustrated that BJJ as a whole is moving further and further from its roots as a martial art.

  7. #17
    cualltaigh's Avatar
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    I have a unique perspective on this gi/no-gi debate.

    The place that I spend most of my time away from home (and the gym), and statistically where I am most likely to have to defend myself, is primarily populated by people wearing gi-like suit jackets. That's right, that Pierre Cardin/Hugo Boss/Armani suit your wearing is not just a fashion based symbol of corporate/manly status, it's a double-breasted choke handle.

    So training in the gi for me is not a step away from practicality, it is very street. Very Wall street (well, more market street if you want to go local, but that doesn't have the same ring to it). If anything, training in the gi for me is dressed down (like most people's no-gi), for in my street people walk around with a garotte already tied around their neck.
    Dum spiro, spero.
    Tada gan iarracht.

  8. #18
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    I would be interested to see if the worm guard does work with normal street clothes or not. I suspect that it will work fine with baggy clothes.
    Of the single rapier fight between valiant men, having both skill, he that is the best wrestler, or if neither of them can wrestle, the strongest man most commonly kills the other, or leaves him at his mercy.
    –George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    I would be interested to see if the worm guard does work with normal street clothes or not. I suspect that it will work fine with baggy clothes.
    I suspect that messing with worm guard will get you drilled in the face. Repeatedly.

    I do agree with the point that people pulling off a lot of these (in my mind) esoteric moves are already solid high level grapplers. I've also always been a big proponent of the idea that once someone is a solid blue belt they should have a pretty solid basic ground game.

    But there is a certain truth to the notion that you fight how you train. And a lot of what goes on in bjj comp today is kind of far from what most people would consider actual fighting.

    Like if you enter a spot jujitsu competition things like worm guard would go out the window pretty fast. There is a rising popularity of moves that are only viable when you disallow striking. But take someone like Kron Gracie who, when you look at him compete has a very fundamental game... but the dude is a wizard with those fundamentals. The transition to something like MMA would be much easier for him I think.

    But like I said earlier, I'm not against this stuff. I fully understand that it is innovation for the sake of dealing with other high level grapplers in competition. But for me personally, the more it falls apart when you add striking to the mix, the less interesting it is.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by cualltaigh View Post
    I have a unique perspective on this gi/no-gi debate.

    The place that I spend most of my time away from home (and the gym), and statistically where I am most likely to have to defend myself, is primarily populated by people wearing gi-like suit jackets. That's right, that Pierre Cardin/Hugo Boss/Armani suit your wearing is not just a fashion based symbol of corporate/manly status, it's a double-breasted choke handle.

    So training in the gi for me is not a step away from practicality, it is very street. Very Wall street (well, more market street if you want to go local, but that doesn't have the same ring to it). If anything, training in the gi for me is dressed down (like most people's no-gi), for in my street people walk around with a garotte already tied around their neck.

    Plenty of top level mma fighters still train in the other styles as they were meant to be trained. And if they do it then I will support that it should be done that way.

    My theory as to why it works is that it is harder to pull off stuff within the respective disciplines and so you get better at pulling off stuff.

    Sport is all about over engineering your defence.

    As far as realism goes. And because I have been playing with TMA forums a bit. You tend to loose realism for two reasons.

    One is they are fighting back and two is they are about as good as you are.
    Last edited by gregaquaman; 6/19/2014 3:33am at .
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