Page 6 of 6 First ... 23456
  1. #51
    goodlun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    10,781
    Style
    BJJ, FMA
    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Here is some Kata from what I believe is one of Judo's parent Ryus

    Yeah not really seeing the value in it.
    Of the single rapier fight between valiant men, having both skill, he that is the best wrestler, or if neither of them can wrestle, the strongest man most commonly kills the other, or leaves him at his mercy.
    –George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence

  2. #52
    BKR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bonners Ferry, Idaho
    Posts
    16,607
    Style
    Kodokan Judo/BJJ
    3
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    Here is some Kata from what I believe is one of Judo's parent Ryus

    Yeah not really seeing the value in it.
    In Judo, it's known as Koshiki No Kata, and that is a demo of the same. A horrible demo to say the least, although I'm sure I would get exorciated by many for saying so (not around here, though).

    Kito Ryu is indeed one of the primary "root arts" of Judo, in which Jigoro Kano achieved Menkyo Kaiden in (he apparently didn't in Tenjin shin'yo Ryu, the other primary art he studied).

    Kito Ryu is pretty much a dead art these days. The Koshiki No Kata is a "ri no kata", or kata of principles, rather than necessarily a practical training kata. Supposedly, uke and tori are dressed in armor as well.

    Kito Ryu is where Kano got the idea for randori from as well, and at one point I think was a "sogo bujutsu", encompassing weapons and related hand to hand combat aspects.
    Falling for Judo since 1980

    "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

    "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

    "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

  3. #53
    solves problems with violence supporting member
    Ming Loyalist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    5,114
    Style
    Judo, Hung Family Boxing
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    I agree with the statement, however, for a (maybe) different reason than your coach and kata uke stated.

    Uke should be doing most of the work in Nage No Kata because if you are doing it correctly, or at least optimally, "ju" and action reaction (can't remember the Japanese) are two main principles you are (or should be) using (leading to maximum efficiency).

    If you are using those two principles effectively, then you do not need to "put your all" into the throws, nor risk losing your balance.

    Of course, it WILL look good for the judges if you do correctly, although that might depend on the judges to some degree. Personally, when I look at a kata "performance" if I see uke jumping instead of being thrown (talking Nage No Kata), it tells me that tori really is not "getting it". Of course, a great uke can make you look good in either direction, LOL !

    Most Nage No Kata I see (even watching video of high level competition), looks "dead" and very fake to me. It's all about doing the precise number of steps, etc, to not get "downgraded".





    Exactly, and I think that most informed people would agree (nowadays) that kata was/is intended to be a learning tool, not a primarily a demonstration method.

    Your previous attitude is pretty common, same for the most part with the disparaging of kata that was and is so common. And some kata may well be useless and a waste of time.

    But not, I think, the kata of Kodokan Judo, although they can be made useless.
    i somehow missed this reply, sorry! i am probably oversimplifying/misunderstanding what was told to me. when we work on kata, uke doesn't jump for seoi nage or for kata guruma at all NeilG, and the couple of times where uke was told to be more proactive were the yoko sutemi waza and ura nage i think. i actually think the reason given was that the falls are easier to take for uke that way (but i could be wrong.)

    i do think that it's too bad that the main focus of kata for most judoka is to pass their promotional tests. i have been told by some with excellent judo that practicing kata has greatly improved their understanding of the throws, but we never use them as a tool for teaching technique. only so much mat time, i suppose uchikomi and nagekomi are more efficient uses of the time.
    "Face punches are an essential character building part of a martial art. You don't truly love your children unless you allow them to get punched in the face." - chi-conspiricy
    "When I was a little boy, I had a sailor suit, but it didn't mean I was in the Navy." - Mtripp on the subject of a 5 year old karate black belt
    "Without actual qualifications to be a Zen teacher, your instructor is just another roundeye raping Asian culture for a buck." - Errant108
    "Seriously, who gives a **** what you or Errant think? You're Asian males, everyone just ignores you, unless you're in a krotty movie." - new2bjj

  4. #54
    BKR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bonners Ferry, Idaho
    Posts
    16,607
    Style
    Kodokan Judo/BJJ
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ming Loyalist View Post
    i somehow missed this reply, sorry! i am probably oversimplifying/misunderstanding what was told to me. when we work on kata, uke doesn't jump for seoi nage or for kata guruma at all NeilG, and the couple of times where uke was told to be more proactive were the yoko sutemi waza and ura nage i think. i actually think the reason given was that the falls are easier to take for uke that way (but i could be wrong.)

    i do think that it's too bad that the main focus of kata for most judoka is to pass their promotional tests. i have been told by some with excellent judo that practicing kata has greatly improved their understanding of the throws, but we never use them as a tool for teaching technique. only so much mat time, i suppose uchikomi and nagekomi are more efficient uses of the time.
    As limited as time can be and as boring as much judo instruction is including kata, no wonder people avoid kata !

    Interestingly, in the yoko sutemi (Uki Waza and Sumi Gaeshi at least) uke and tori should be actively pulling away from each other a bit. Uke doesn't want to come along for the ride so to speak.

    To actually throw uke requires tori to do the throw correctly. It's an illustration oof sutemi to overcome that resistance. That's different than the other throws in that uke gives some sort of forward or sideways (in Okuri ashi barai) motion/action/reaction.

    Yoko Gake is kind of weird too and a hard fall even when/if the throw is done correctly.

    Anyway, enjoy your journey in kata and learn as much as you can from it.
    Falling for Judo since 1980

    "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

    "The best part of getting you worked up is your backpack full of irony and lies." -It Is Fake

    "Banning BKR is like kicking a Quokka. It's foolishness of the first order." - Raycetpfl

  5. #55
    W. Rabbit's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Suburbia
    Posts
    11,655
    Style
    Mixed
    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you add some Eagle Claw forms to Shadow Fist forms, you get Shadow Claw Jade Fist kung fu.


  6. #56

    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    561
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    In Judo, it's known as Koshiki No Kata, and that is a demo of the same. A horrible demo to say the least, although I'm sure I would get exorciated by many for saying so (not around here, though).

    Kito Ryu is indeed one of the primary "root arts" of Judo, in which Jigoro Kano achieved Menkyo Kaiden in (he apparently didn't in Tenjin shin'yo Ryu, the other primary art he studied).

    Kito Ryu is pretty much a dead art these days. The Koshiki No Kata is a "ri no kata", or kata of principles, rather than necessarily a practical training kata. Supposedly, uke and tori are dressed in armor as well.

    Kito Ryu is where Kano got the idea for randori from as well, and at one point I think was a "sogo bujutsu", encompassing weapons and related hand to hand combat aspects.
    One of my favourite books is Hidden in Plain Sight by Ellis Amdur. Although it's ostensibly about Aikido training, part of the background covers a number of ryuha catapulted into popularity in the Edo era following revelations about particular training methods from South China.

    Kito Ryu was apparently one such school, but it's unsure what exactly was being practiced in Kano's day; between various wars and social change, classical JMA suffered immeasurably (I believe it was the Shindo Yoshin Ryu head who more recently collected Akiyama Yoshin Ryu densho and observed entire portions to have disappeared completely). Hence, it's speculated that by the time Takeda Sokaku was a real force in the JMA world, most classical schools had abandoned or forgotten the sort of training he was using; it's certainly difficult to imagine the extant Kito Ryu is capable or even interested in this sort of thing now.

  7. #57
    bobyclumsyninja's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Bahstun
    Posts
    7,042
    Style
    Kickboxing (student)
    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Great thread here. I learned a lot.

    I suppose given the way kata has been described, I'm kinda doing it in the mornings shadowboxing. Like a micro-kata weave. I definitely have certain patterns, and associated pivots and footwork that I make sure I mix in. Lefty-to-righty, Hands to feet, feet to hands in certain progressions etc during the thing.

    In the SanDa/SanShou classes, the instructor would use a student to slowly show the drill two or three times from each side, to show the proper 'form' and tell us what to watch out for, and to remember..taking about 45 seconds.

    We'd then drill it for one or two 3-minute rounds and move on. For what we were doing, it would have been a waste of time to spend more than a fraction of our time doing them as form rather than all-out on the focus mitts or in a partner drill taking turns. It was purely training for sport, so that would explain it.

    I used to enjoy doing the tiger kung fu forms. Made me feel great...right up until I attended the SanDa classes and got to spar one time. All forms did nothing whatsoever for me in that setting.

  8. #58
    MrGalt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Asheville, NC
    Posts
    1,067
    Style
    Seidokaikan
    4
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    What the hell is this

    Jesus Christ alive! 56 seconds of bowing and opening posture before he finally throws a "technique" (to use the term loosely)? On the other hand it is the first time I've seen someone go Super Saiyan during a flag corps audition, so he has that going for him, which is nice.

    That form reminded me of the time my sensei gave a kid a 2/10 for a kama kata that contained spinning kicks. The other judges informed him that the grading scale was from 9.5-10 and he said, "No, I'm giving him a two for throwing a high kick when he has a ten inch knife in each hand."

  9. #59
    ermghoti's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    OW, MY KNEE
    Posts
    4,645
    Style
    BJJ+Sanda
    3
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MrGalt View Post
    ...the grading scale was from 9.5-10...
    IRL LOL
    "Systema, which means, 'the system'..."

    Quote Originally Posted by strikistanian View Post
    DROP SEIONAGI ************! Except I don't know Judo, so it doesn't work, and he takes my back.
    Quote Originally Posted by Devil
    Why is it so goddamn hard to find a video of it? I've seen videos I'm pretty sure are alien spacecraft. But still no good Krav.
    Quote Originally Posted by Plasma
    At the point, I must act! You see my rashguard saids "Jiu Jitsu vs The World" and "The World" was standing in front me teaching Anti-Grappling in a school I help run.
    [quote=SoulMechanic]Thank you, not dying really rewarding in more ways than I can express.[/[quote]

  10. #60

    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    18
    Style
    Boxing and Muay Thai
    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Resonance10 View Post
    Plenty of manuals in non western styles. Same/very similar methods I would argue.



    Agree with this but would say if you remove the bag and 'stylized' the difference is moot.
    I think that's poor reasoning though, simply because the bag itself is what constitutes a fundamental difference from Katas. Heavy Bag work is hard because you need to adjust constantly to a shifting range as you punch, you need to always land your shots at the end so you don't push the bag, you need to circle while maintaining the same range...etc

    Even shadow boxing -- which would be what you described above imo, practicing combos without the bag or "stylized" -- constitutes a fundamental difference in that it emphasizes spontaneity. You're given combos to repeat and practice and told certain footwork drills or counters to try out, but at the end of the day you're mixing and matching them yourself and trying to find out what you're best at chaining.

    What disturbs me so with katas, is the element of blind adherence and the lack of modification to suit your own physicality and preferences. Seems very dogmatic and static in its approach, but I only practiced Kung Fu briefly (Forget the style now, maybe choi lee fut) and am in no way well versed in the full scope of what Katas may constitute

Page 6 of 6 First ... 23456

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Log in

Log in