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  1. jspeedy is online now
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    Posted On:
    5/25/2014 1:00pm


     Style: FMA

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Legalities of teh deadly For FMA?

    I know laws vary from state to state and legal/use of force is a frequent discussion but I'm looking for thoughts on something more specific. Do you think FMA groups that portray a hard core image using skulls, head hunters, lots of blades, put their members at legal risk? Scenario discussion can get a little crazy but the topic i'd like to discuss is "can the image of your group negatively effect you if an altercation goes to court?"

    Here's the scenario, yon train in a weapons system and end up using a weapon to defend your life. Regardless of what happens to your attacker the situation will most likely go to court. If it comes to light that you train with weapons could the image your training group portrays effect your defense in a court room? Will prosecutors paint you as a blood thirsty blade enthusiast itching to stab a "bad guy"? Even more if you use a $400 specialty blade or karambit, would you be in more trouble than if you used a simple utilitarian knife?

    I've had this conversation with fellow FMAers and had never considered that the image of your group or the weapon you carry could effect a court case. This is a pretty remote scenario, some seem to take the approach that's its better to be "tried by 12 than carried by six" and don't worry about this. But I think this is something to be considered. Just like the Krav and combatives crowd that downplay sport based martial arts and think they can destroy anyone in a fight and sort out the details after they live through it.
  2. Southpaw is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/26/2014 6:33am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Wing Chun

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Really good question that I'd like to add too if you don't mind (since I don't have the answers)?

    In addition to your good points above, I've always wondered about the legal aspect of teaching flow drills and combinations that would leave a person with multiple (potentially) fatal cuts. I've trained with FMA guys who show me how they would defend an attack from me, and it inevitably ends in my being cut several times, in major arteries.
  3. Diesel_tke is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/26/2014 7:05am

    Join us... or die
     Style: stick,Taiji, mountainbike

    5
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've been to court a few times and believe me, an attorney will dig up anything they can about you. And when you post stuff all over Facebook, YouTube, and twitter that has cool knives and guns, they will find them. Does it mean an instant conviction? No. But it will surely make your self defense case a little more difficult.
    Combatives training log.

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  4. jspeedy is online now
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    Posted On:
    5/30/2014 10:28pm


     Style: FMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks for the input from an LEO perspective Diesel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southpaw View Post
    Really good question that I'd like to add too if you don't mind (since I don't have the answers)?

    In addition to your good points above, I've always wondered about the legal aspect of teaching flow drills and combinations that would leave a person with multiple (potentially) fatal cuts. I've trained with FMA guys who show me how they would defend an attack from me, and it inevitably ends in my being cut several times, in major arteries.
    This reminds me of a feature Masters Mag used to have years ago. They would take one move, in this case a lapel grab and the magazine would show a panel of pictures demonstrating how different styles and systems would react. The idea was pretty cool, you could see three or different styles react to the technique and decide which one you liked best. One thing I noticed in some cases like the lapel grab, some systems would react with say a throat punch, double eye gouge, and knee stop combo that would decimate the lapel grabber. The problem with this? It should be pretty obvious that striking and maiming a guy who simply grabs your shirt will land you in jail. But like Southpaw addressed some systems rely too much on the "judged by 12/carried by 6" mentality. Even more so "teh deadly" might get you students but it seems like this kind of marketing might just get you in trouble or at least with a heavy lawyer fee to prove your case.
  5. gregaquaman is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/31/2014 2:48am

    Join us... or die
     Style: mma /boxing/muai thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It can get used. Mma was raised in the Zimmerman case.
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  6. blindside is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/31/2014 11:57am


     Style: Pekiti-Tirsia Kali

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Southpaw View Post

    In addition to your good points above, I've always wondered about the legal aspect of teaching flow drills and combinations that would leave a person with multiple (potentially) fatal cuts. I've trained with FMA guys who show me how they would defend an attack from me, and it inevitably ends in my being cut several times, in major arteries.
    Defending a weapon attack or a punch or other non-deadly force attacks?

    While this isn't the original intent of the thread, your question is more a matter of understanding the use of force continuum, which given that we train with weapons should be a mandatory part of the curriculum.
  7. W. Rabbit is offline
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    heaven sent and hell bent but weapons clenched and well kept

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    Posted On:
    5/31/2014 10:09pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law.
  8. mrtnira is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/01/2014 6:59am


     Style: Karate

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A useful book to read is Scaling Force: Dynamic Decision Making Under Threat of Violence, by Roy Miller.

    The book covers the legal principles of escalation of force with real life examples of how quickly things can get out of control, and it is an easy read. Many books on legal issues can be dry, but this one was written for people working security and is easily readable. I've bought a half-dozen copies and passed the book to people I know working in security roles with public contact.

    With percentages, if you have enough public contact, eventually something will go sour and then people start asking questions. Having good behavioral boundaries going into a confrontation may help avoid problems before they happen. More than just martial arts training, you might want to look at de-escalation training -- how to avoid fights, what to say, what not to say, how to say it, body language, demeanor, etc.
  9. jspeedy is online now
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    Posted On:
    6/01/2014 9:16am


     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by mrtnira View Post
    A useful book to read is Scaling Force: Dynamic Decision Making Under Threat of Violence, by Roy Miller.

    The book covers the legal principles of escalation of force with real life examples of how quickly things can get out of control, and it is an easy read. Many books on legal issues can be dry, but this one was written for people working security and is easily readable. I've bought a half-dozen copies and passed the book to people I know working in security roles with public contact.

    With percentages, if you have enough public contact, eventually something will go sour and then people start asking questions. Having good behavioral boundaries going into a confrontation may help avoid problems before they happen. More than just martial arts training, you might want to look at de-escalation training -- how to avoid fights, what to say, what not to say, how to say it, body language, demeanor, etc.
    I'll have to check out the book. I've heard of some of the RBSD guys that think every curriculum should teach de-escalation techniques, situational awareness, and things that just fall into the street smarts category. I agree that its something that a responsible practitioner should research but I don't know about getting too involved with it during class maybe the occasional discussion or as mrtnira does, just pass around a book.
  10. BKR is online now
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    6/02/2014 5:10pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jspeedy View Post
    I'll have to check out the book. I've heard of some of the RBSD guys that think every curriculum should teach de-escalation techniques, situational awareness, and things that just fall into the street smarts category. I agree that its something that a responsible practitioner should research but I don't know about getting too involved with it during class maybe the occasional discussion or as mrtnira does, just pass around a book.
    To me, everything that falls into the "street smarts" category would/should be a part of any true self protection/defense class/curriculum. That would include dealing with adrenaline dumps (something which competition in a "martial sport" can do pretty well).

    Everyone who is truly serious should be pretty well versed in the state code or other applicable laws regarding use of force where ever they live as well.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
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