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  1. wadoyoshinryu is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/13/2014 7:40am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Karate Wado Ryu + Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Linking Judo and Wrestling

    I have been always fascinated on how martial arts developed in completely different continents could evolve similarly (this is called convergent evolution in biology, like wings for birds and for bats that have a different genetic history but the same purpose). Therefore I am interested in linking the techniques of judo to those of wrestling. Besides the rule set, the training consuetudes, clothes' issues (gi vs. no-gi), counters and/or transitions, I'd like to match -if possible- similar moves in a reasonable manner. To start with, I tried the following

    Single leg pick up - Kibisu gaeshi
    Arm drag - Uki otoshi
    Elbow spin and back heel - Sukui nage
    Cross buttock - Sei otoshi
    Single leg drive - Kata gurum
    Double leg tackle - Morote gari

    I know it's a very poor start but it may be improved.
  2. Krijgsman is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/13/2014 6:33pm


     Style: Judo noob, injured guy.

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Kata Guruma is a Shoulder Wheel/Fireman's Carry... is that the same as the single leg drive? (I suck at wrestling terminology).

    My coach who started in wrestling, moved to Judo and Sambo, and sort of teaches his Judo as a conglomeration of all of those styles says "its all the same ****, just use what works). That said:

    Arm Throw: Seoi nage
    Hip Throw: O Goshi (among koshi waza)
    Hand/Grip Fighting: Kumi Kata
    Lateral Drop: Yoko Otoshi (among others)
    Suplex/Salto: Uri Nage
    Cement Mixer: Yoko Hikkomi Gaeshi
    Foot Sweep: Any ashi-waza that sweeps

    Both wrestling and Judo guys can probably correct my correlations here, but really, anything that works withing the rules of a competition will be used. Just like wrestling techniques are usually a description of how the technique works, Judo names things quite similarly (O Goshi: Major Hip throw etc)
  3. wadoyoshinryu is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/14/2014 9:21am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Karate Wado Ryu + Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    >Kata Guruma is a Shoulder Wheel/Fireman's Carry
    Yes it must be the Shoulder Wheel/Fireman's Carry! I have never done wrestling, and I found some very old free books online (including one from 1890something) where I took the moves' names from.

    >"its all the same ****
    What fascinates me is that such moves had been invented/evolved in continents very far apart (with limited connections/exchanges before the 1900, really). So either they share a very ancient common ancestor, or they ended up being the same just because they best fit human body dynamics.

    I was thinking about the same with strikes. I believe the contamination there is more pronounced (western boxing influencing muay thay or karate [kyokushin] or kung fu wushu [sanda], but look at savate and how the kicks were independently invented and yet so much similar to those of east asian martial arts), and there are many issues that are still debated, like corkscrew punch vs. vertical vs. canted fist in the context of bare-knuckle fighting, chambered vs. straight leg kicks. However a punch is a punch, a kick is a kick, a knee is a knee, an elbow is an elbow, and a head is a head :-D
  4. blackmonk is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/14/2014 2:56pm

    supporting member
     Style: belt and jacket wrestling

    4
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wrestling is wrestling. How do I get this guy to the ground?

    Unbalance him, grab his leg, load him up on a hip, remove his posts, etc. Applies to all styles, in one way or another.
  5. BKR is online now
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    5/14/2014 5:45pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by wadoyoshinryu View Post
    I have been always fascinated on how martial arts developed in completely different continents could evolve similarly (this is called convergent evolution in biology, like wings for birds and for bats that have a different genetic history but the same purpose). Therefore I am interested in linking the techniques of judo to those of wrestling. Besides the rule set, the training consuetudes, clothes' issues (gi vs. no-gi), counters and/or transitions, I'd like to match -if possible- similar moves in a reasonable manner. To start with, I tried the following

    Single leg pick up - Kibisu gaeshi
    Arm drag - Uki otoshi
    Elbow spin and back heel - Sukui nage
    Cross buttock - Sei otoshi
    Single leg drive - Kata gurum
    Double leg tackle - Morote gari

    I know it's a very poor start but it may be improved.
    Why? Your list is mostly wrong.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  6. blackmonk is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/15/2014 1:14pm

    supporting member
     Style: belt and jacket wrestling

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    kibisu gaeshi - ankle pick
    uki otoshi - VERY common in Mongolian wrestling, but certainly isn't an arm drag
    sukui nage - hell, I don't know
    seoi otoshi - arm throw, happens in Greco a fair amount. The East German guys were monsters with arm throws.
    kata guruma - firemans carry
    double leg - sorta morote gari

    There are some edits, but none of them are necessarily truly equal.
  7. wadoyoshinryu is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/15/2014 4:04pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Karate Wado Ryu + Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks all, I have basically null knowledge of western wrestling terminology (and I just recently started with judo) so I knew I was going to make huge mistakes.
    I will summarise here what we have so far. If other suggestions come in the future the list will grow.
    Arm Throw : Seoi nage
    Arm throw : seoi otoshi
    Hip Throw : O Goshi (among koshi waza)
    Hand/Grip Fighting : Kumi Kata
    Lateral Drop : Yoko Otoshi (among others)
    Suplex/Salto : Uri Nage
    Cement Mixer: Yoko Hikkomi Gaeshi
    Foot Sweep : Any ashi-waza that sweeps
    ankle pick : kibisu gaeshi
    firemans carry : kata guruma
    double leg tackle : morote gari
    BTW, is the wikipedia page on judo techniques explaining them with standard wrestling terms? (I can't post the link because I have no sufficient posts yet, but it's the page "List_of_judo_techniques")
  8. Krijgsman is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/19/2014 1:48am


     Style: Judo noob, injured guy.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by wadoyoshinryu View Post
    Thanks all, I have basically null knowledge of western wrestling terminology (and I just recently started with judo) so I knew I was going to make huge mistakes.
    I will summarise here what we have so far. If other suggestions come in the future the list will grow.
    Arm Throw : Seoi nage
    Arm throw : seoi otoshi
    Hip Throw : O Goshi (among koshi waza)
    Hand/Grip Fighting : Kumi Kata
    Lateral Drop : Yoko Otoshi (among others)
    Suplex/Salto : Uri Nage
    Cement Mixer: Yoko Hikkomi Gaeshi
    Foot Sweep : Any ashi-waza that sweeps
    ankle pick : kibisu gaeshi
    firemans carry : kata guruma
    double leg tackle : morote gari
    BTW, is the wikipedia page on judo techniques explaining them with standard wrestling terms? (I can't post the link because I have no sufficient posts yet, but it's the page "List_of_judo_techniques")
    Once you understand the basic terminology, you realize that the Japanese names are descriptive. Just look up the Japanese translations and its as good as you are going to find most likely. (as in O means major and Goshi means hip throw, roughly translated)

    If you aren't familiar with western wrestling and are just starting Judo, I wouldn't worry about learning the western wrestling equivalent just learn the Judo terms.
  9. Krijgsman is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/19/2014 10:42am


     Style: Judo noob, injured guy.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Krijgsman View Post
    Once you understand the basic terminology, you realize that the Japanese names are descriptive. Just look up the Japanese translations and its as good as you are going to find most likely. (as in O means major and Goshi means hip throw, roughly translated)

    If you aren't familiar with western wrestling and are just starting Judo, I wouldn't worry about learning the western wrestling equivalent just learn the Judo terms.
    Reading my own post (and unable to edit it anymore) I realize I sound quite dismissive. I apologize for that. That I know of, there isn't a database that says "this Judo technique is equivalent to this freestyle wrestling technique". I doubt Judo politics (which is seems to always be trying to draw distinctions between Judo and Wrestling to ensure their Olympic status) would let that happen readily.

    The comparisons I provided are basically a matter of me spending a couple of years doing Judo with a lot of ex-wrestlers who use wrestling terminology pretty liberally and my tendency to watch youtube of various grappling styles and going "oh, that technique is very similar to this Judo technique that I have been taught". As blackmonk said, wrestling/grappling of any style is basically all the same since most all humans share the same bio-mechanics and the best way to move someone against their will ends up being unbalancing and leverage.

    Judo, freestyle, greco, sambo, shuai jiao, schwingen: pick your favorite style and the flavor will be a matter of culture and rule-set - its all the same ****. When you get to know the art you are practicing (which sounds like Judo) well enough you can start looking at other arts and realizing the links. Heck, my wife (who is only a few months into Judo and BJJ) had a grand time watching the new Captain America and hollering out all the Judo terms for the grappling that takes place in it.

    Most of these techniques can be found on Greek pottery from several thousand years ago. There is nothing new under the sun. I would imagine every Judo technique that doesn't absolutely require a jacket (I can't think of any at the moment... maybe sode tsurikomi goshi) or is against the rules of western wrestling (most obvious example being submissions) would be easy enough to find examples of in western wrestling.
  10. BKR is online now
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    5/20/2014 3:40pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by wadoyoshinryu View Post
    Thanks all, I have basically null knowledge of western wrestling terminology (and I just recently started with judo) so I knew I was going to make huge mistakes.
    I will summarise here what we have so far. If other suggestions come in the future the list will grow.
    Arm Throw : Seoi nage
    Arm throw : seoi otoshi
    Hip Throw : O Goshi (among koshi waza)
    Hand/Grip Fighting : Kumi Kata
    Lateral Drop : Yoko Otoshi (among others)
    Suplex/Salto : Uri Nage
    Cement Mixer: Yoko Hikkomi Gaeshi
    Foot Sweep : Any ashi-waza that sweeps
    ankle pick : kibisu gaeshi
    firemans carry : kata guruma
    double leg tackle : morote gari
    BTW, is the wikipedia page on judo techniques explaining them with standard wrestling terms? (I can't post the link because I have no sufficient posts yet, but it's the page "List_of_judo_techniques")
    In general, judo techniques, nage waza (throwing/projecting techniques in particular) illustrate different principles of throwing.

    So it's difficult to get a one to one correlation (not always) western wrestling terms that are just describing a physical action/position.

    Seoi Nage for example. Seoi can mean shoulder, it can also mean "to carry on the back" (as in a back pack...to load something on the upper back...like carrying a log, beam, or sack of something on the upper back).


    "Nage" also has connotations beyond "arm throw" (in Japanese...and I have to take others words for this because I don't speak or read Japanese). "Nage" (verb nageru, I think) has the connotation of projecting away from the thrower (tori in Judo lingo). And in fact, in Judo, the principle usually illustrated is the one used to actually finish/execute the throw...not the entry, set up, or type of opportunity tori used to throw.

    So Seoi Nage is "shoulder" or more specifically, "back carry throw, where uke is loaded on tori shoulder(s)/upper back and then thrown/projected away from tori (although tori may hold on and maintain control so that uke doesn't just go flying away...see "Tomoe Nage" for a more clear example in Nage No Kata versus how it done in competition).

    That's a bit different than "arm throw", eh? Arm throw covers a lot of ground, some of which I now overlaps with the "nage" and "back carry" principle(s).

    Morote Gari vs "double leg",or "double leg tackle".

    Morote means "both hands/arms" and "gari" is "reap". So, using both hands to "reap" uke's legs away. Technically, if you just tackle a guy by wrapping your arms around his legs, it's not necessarily Morote Gari (in the judo sense). "Reap" or "gari/kari" in judo has specific meaning beyond Morote Gari (Look at Osoto Gari, for example). Reaping is to have significant weight supported on the leg, then to literally cut the weighted leg(s) out from under uke with a scythe-like motions (of the hands/arms in Morote Gari, the legs in throws like Osoto Gari).

    So a double leg tackle with no "reaping" isn't technically Morote Gari, in the Judo sense at least.

    Does that make a bit more sense now?
    Falling for Judo since 1980
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