223503 Bullies, 3707 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 1 to 10 of 20
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. Krijgsman is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Pasadena, CA
    Posts
    557

    Posted On:
    5/07/2014 11:10am


     Style: Judo noob, injured guy.

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Great new Jack Slack article

    I don't generally pimp other sites here, but Jack Slack has a great new article on Fightland about why martial arts are the way they are (and how techniques develop). It was a fantastic read.

    http://fightland.vice.com/blog/jack-...motives-part-1
  2. CrackFox is offline
    CrackFox's Avatar

    You have to work the look.

    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Bat Country
    Posts
    3,076

    Posted On:
    5/07/2014 3:50pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't know dude.

    I only read the first bit but already he's got his terms wrong. That lock Jones is doing is really an ude-gatame, it's a straight arm lock. His opponent slacks it off by bending his elbow, but Jones is nowhere close to turning that into a garame movement. Hair splitting asside, ude-gatame is a very common move in judo and is not seen in any way or form as some ineffectual relic from the jujutsu days.

    Yeah, it's mainly applied on the ground - where it's a lot easier to finish - but I know several people who use it in the grip fighting stage to gain an advantage. That looks pretty consistent with how Jones is using it there.

    The thing Akoi, Kano, and Mifune are doing is called waki-gatami. Again this is taught as a "real" technique in judo. Again it's not one you'll finish very often, but it does lend itself to giving it a quick try where you'll at least get a reaction.
  3. BKR is offline
    BKR's Avatar

    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bonners Ferry, Idaho
    Posts
    4,280

    Posted On:
    5/07/2014 5:30pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CrackFox View Post
    I don't know dude.

    I only read the first bit but already he's got his terms wrong. That lock Jones is doing is really an ude-gatame, it's a straight arm lock. His opponent slacks it off by bending his elbow, but Jones is nowhere close to turning that into a garame movement. Hair splitting asside, ude-gatame is a very common move in judo and is not seen in any way or form as some ineffectual relic from the jujutsu days.

    Yeah, it's mainly applied on the ground - where it's a lot easier to finish - but I know several people who use it in the grip fighting stage to gain an advantage. That looks pretty consistent with how Jones is using it there.

    The thing Akoi, Kano, and Mifune are doing is called waki-gatami. Again this is taught as a "real" technique in judo. Again it's not one you'll finish very often, but it does lend itself to giving it a quick try where you'll at least get a reaction.
    Good observations...I skimmed through it and saw basically the same thing.

    Waki Gatame can be pretty devastating. In judo we have to do it with control, but in a SD situation you'd do it very quickly and break the arm right away if necessary.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  4. judoka_uk is offline
    judoka_uk's Avatar

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    England
    Posts
    4,618

    Posted On:
    5/07/2014 5:39pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I would actually be tempted to call it Waki Gatame, whilst it's not ude hishigi waki gatame, it's pretty clear from the gif that the driving force behin the break is the arm entanglement in Jones' armpit, which provides the leverage for the break.



    This is assuming, of course, that we have to give it a Judo name and can't just call it brutal standing armlock.
  5. Krijgsman is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Pasadena, CA
    Posts
    557

    Posted On:
    5/07/2014 5:44pm


     Style: Judo noob, injured guy.

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CrackFox View Post
    I don't know dude.

    I only read the first bit but already he's got his terms wrong. That lock Jones is doing is really an ude-gatame, it's a straight arm lock. His opponent slacks it off by bending his elbow, but Jones is nowhere close to turning that into a garame movement. Hair splitting asside, ude-gatame is a very common move in judo and is not seen in any way or form as some ineffectual relic from the jujutsu days.

    Yeah, it's mainly applied on the ground - where it's a lot easier to finish - but I know several people who use it in the grip fighting stage to gain an advantage. That looks pretty consistent with how Jones is using it there.

    The thing Akoi, Kano, and Mifune are doing is called waki-gatami. Again this is taught as a "real" technique in judo. Again it's not one you'll finish very often, but it does lend itself to giving it a quick try where you'll at least get a reaction.
    I don't know that I agree. It was a particular application of ude garame and it was specifically the turning torque on the shoulder (not on the elbow) that had such an effect on Glover and the same lock that Mir used against Pete Williams. I guess it may depend on how entangled something has to be before it becomes garame vs gatame. Judo semantics woo!

    I was more interested in the statements about how techniques developed with a particular context in mind (jujutsu and aikijutsu wrist locks/disarms meant for armored combat etc) and the benefits of live/resisted training. I give Jack the benefit of the doubt since he is primarily a striker who is just getting into grappling. The fact that he bothers to try to use Judo terms as well as BJJ makes me happy enough that it doesn't bother me if he doesn't quite get the term correct.
  6. CrackFox is offline
    CrackFox's Avatar

    You have to work the look.

    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Bat Country
    Posts
    3,076

    Posted On:
    5/07/2014 5:47pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Why do you think that lock is tweaking the shoulder?
  7. Krijgsman is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Pasadena, CA
    Posts
    557

    Posted On:
    5/07/2014 5:49pm


     Style: Judo noob, injured guy.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CrackFox View Post
    Why do you think that lock is tweaking the shoulder?
    Because Glover has said after the fight that when Jones cranked it (he did so explosively early in the fight) it injured his shoulder and he couldn't throw his right hand anymore.
  8. BJMills is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    454

    Posted On:
    5/07/2014 5:51pm


     Style: Muay Thai/Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CrackFox View Post
    Why do you think that lock is tweaking the shoulder?
    Because after the fight Glover said the lock messed up his shoulder.

    Looked like more pressure on the elbow to me, but I'm quite certain he has a much better perspective on it than the rest of us ;-)
  9. Krijgsman is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Pasadena, CA
    Posts
    557

    Posted On:
    5/07/2014 5:54pm


     Style: Judo noob, injured guy.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BJMills View Post
    Because after the fight Glover said the lock messed up his shoulder.

    Looked like more pressure on the elbow to me, but I'm quite certain he has a much better perspective on it than the rest of us ;-)
    That was my though. I will say that I don't know nearly enough of the Japanese for Judo to actually argue what the lock qualifies as in the Japanese, so I should probably duck out of the garame vs gatame discussion. I guess Jacks point was more "look at this old school **** working just fine... lets talk about technique".
  10. CrackFox is offline
    CrackFox's Avatar

    You have to work the look.

    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Bat Country
    Posts
    3,076

    Posted On:
    5/07/2014 6:16pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Krijgsman View Post
    I will say that I don't know nearly enough of the Japanese for Judo to actually argue what the lock qualifies as in the Japanese, so I should probably duck out of the garame vs gatame discussion.
    Gatame - arm bar.
    Garami- key lock.
    I do the standing gatame all the time, but all it usually does is make people cautious about shooting in an underhook.

    If Teixira got done in the shoulder though then I guess it doesn't really matter which one of them it was.

    I guess Jacks point was more "look at this old school **** working just fine... lets talk about technique".
    The rest of the article seems to be all about "oh look at this stuff, it would work if they had swords". I've been hearing that argument for donkeys years off ninjas and supposedly Japanese jujutsu practitioners, and I wasn't really that impressed by it.

    I think what you saw in that match was a low percentage, but also low risk, move that gets used a lot to put people off their game, only this time it did some damage. I guess it was bound to work for someone at some point, right?
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.