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  1. blackmonk is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/03/2014 9:18am

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     Style: belt and jacket wrestling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    In-depth discussion of O Soto Gari

    Name:  O-Soto-Gari.jpg
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    Putting this here to continue discussion of o soto gari, outside of the derailed kani basami thread.

    Continuing on that note, I (in a roundabout way) mentioned to BKR that the traditional entry worked in basic judo classes has never worked for me in randori, because most people will never let you drive in that direction without stiff-arming you away. The entry I'm speaking of is this:


    Name:  O_soto_gari.jpg
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    So, as an adaptation, I have been taking a high-collar or shallow over-the-back grip, hooking their far leg while we are in a more square stance, and then "ken-ken"-ing around into throwing position. This worked almost 100% of the time in randori against varied opponents (white belts on up to black belts) until more recently, and now I'm either getting countered with tani otoshi or a half-assed ura nage, or I'm landing in a less-than-stable position on top. Still an ippon in judo and 4pts in sport sambo, but not advantageous in BJJ or freestyle sambo. In fact, I lost a match on an arguably bad call this past weekend off this very technique.

    Nevertheless, I'm trying to figure out particulars on how to fix these problems.

    I noticed in practice last night, after doing 100 full-force reps on the crash pad, that hooking at the lower calf or achilles lessened uke's chance of stepping out or reversing the technique, because they weren't able to fully engage their hamstring or create any significant force. I imagine this has to do with the leg acting as a lever, and the distance between the load (entire body) and length of the leg. The greater the disparity between the two, the more the effort required to move that load exponentiates.

    I also noticed that crowning the head with the forearm of my collar or back grip side created a lot of unbalancing, sometimes to the point that the reap itself was secondary.

    Thoughts, BKR? I will post video later tonight or tomorrow.
  2. blackmonk is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/03/2014 9:39am

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    This is very, very close to what I do, and although Pedro doesn't vocalize a lot of the small details, you can derive them from his technique.
  3. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/03/2014 10:27am

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    [QUOTE=blackmonk;2826659]
    Name:  O-Soto-Gari.jpg
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    LOL at the photo of Osoto Gari...I heard from one of my students that a kid at a clinic once asked Nic Gill how it felt to get thrown like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by blackmonk View Post
    Putting this here to continue discussion of o soto gari, outside of the derailed kani basami thread.

    Continuing on that note, I (in a roundabout way) mentioned to BKR that the traditional entry worked in basic judo classes has never worked for me in randori, because most people will never let you drive in that direction without stiff-arming you away. The entry I'm speaking of is this:


    Name:  O_soto_gari.jpg
Views: 446
Size:  12.6 KB

    So, as an adaptation, I have been taking a high-collar or shallow over-the-back grip, hooking their far leg while we are in a more square stance, and then "ken-ken"-ing around into throwing position. This worked almost 100% of the time in randori against varied opponents (white belts on up to black belts) until more recently, and now I'm either getting countered with tani otoshi or a half-assed ura nage, or I'm landing in a less-than-stable position on top. Still an ippon in judo and 4pts in sport sambo, but not advantageous in BJJ or freestyle sambo. In fact, I lost a match on an arguably bad call this past weekend off this very technique.

    Nevertheless, I'm trying to figure out particulars on how to fix these problems.

    I noticed in practice last night, after doing 100 full-force reps on the crash pad, that hooking at the lower calf or achilles lessened uke chance of stepping out or reversing the technique, because they weren't able to fully engage their hamstring or create any significant force. I imagine this has to do with the leg acting as a lever, and the distance between the load (entire body) and length of the leg. The greater the disparity between the two, the more the effort required to move that load exponentiates.

    I also noticed that crowning the head with the forearm of my collar or back grip side created a lot of unbalancing, sometimes to the point that the reap itself was secondary.

    Thoughts, BKR? I will post video later tonight or tomorrow.
    I haven't seen or heard of hooking low as you describe, but in terms of the levers it of course makes sense. If you can make it work on skilled opponents, more power to you.

    I'll wait for video to see exactly what you mean. One question though: do you slide your "hooking" leg up once you have hopped into position, or just leave it low ? Because cutting behind the knee has some bio-mechanical advantage as well, especially if you have weight on uke leg.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "crowning the head" (sounds like child birth to me, LOL). If you mean catching the side of the head instead of the neck with your arm, OK, that's something I've done before in Osoto Gari. More commonly, the forearm is used if tori has gotten into position but left the tsurite behind.The forearm then goes under the chin and levers it up by bending the wrist and lifting the elbow. That gets uke head back. Otherwise, the Osoto Gari usually fails.

    In the case of Jimmy Pedro's example, I'll just point out that he is a lefty, and so is demonstrating (I've seen him do it in person at a clinic and in shiai) a left vs right (kenka yotsu situation). That style of cross body Osoto Gari is/was fairly common way to attack due to the larger distance and the angles between uke and tori.

    As an example of pitfalls, which come directly from the problems I had with the style of Osoto Gari entry you are working on, my problem was to keep the weight loaded on uke leg while I hopped into position, as well as head control (which are linked of course). You really need to freeze uke in place, or at least keep your balance ahead of his. Or get countered.

    Finally, the experts that I've had instruction from emphasized hooking your heel behind uke knee, especially the outside ridge of the knee. All of them that did it to me put an incredible amount of pressure there which tended to paralyze me in place.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  4. CrackFox is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/03/2014 10:43am

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    Uki's got their right foot ahead of their left. Step your left just outside their right, tap them for hiza guruma on the left knee. If they try to resist, it's going to make them heavy on their feet, so swing your right leg through and go for the o soto. 60% of the time, it works every time.

    Sent from my ZX Spectrum using TapTalk.
  5. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/03/2014 10:46am

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrackFox View Post
    Uki's got their right foot ahead of their left. Step your left just outside their right, tap them for hiza guruma on the left knee. If they try to resist, it's going to make them heavy on their feet, so swing your right leg through and go for the o soto. 60% of the time, it works every time.

    Sent from my ZX Spectrum using TapTalk.
    Yeah, Hiza Guruma or Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi to Osoto Gari, and the reverse, are classics.

    As for 60% of the time, maybe with a big difference in skill level.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  6. blackmonk is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/03/2014 10:57am

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    My friend Dennis (who has one arm) is very good at that set-up. I had a fucking dogfight against him at my last sport sambo tournament. It was brutal. Unfortunately, he tore his ACL and required surgery, so he's out for at least another 6 months.

    Nevertheless, I'm just looking for small details on the throw. I don't have many problems with getting the position.
  7. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/03/2014 11:36am

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackmonk View Post


    This is very, very close to what I do, and although Pedro doesn't vocalize a lot of the small details, you can derive them from his technique.
    This entry has been my approach for nearly a decade now. I have never liked the hooking of the calf approach I've always found more success with the higher reap. Additionally I have found the angle of my head during execution dictates the success of my throw and the prevention of a counter throw and allows me to continue to a harai goshi if I can't penetrate deep enough.
  8. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/03/2014 11:48am

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackmonk View Post
    My friend Dennis (who has one arm) is very good at that set-up. I had a fucking dogfight against him at my last sport sambo tournament. It was brutal. Unfortunately, he tore his ACL and required surgery, so he's out for at least another 6 months.

    Nevertheless, I'm just looking for small details on the throw. I don't have many problems with getting the position.
    Ouch, torn ACL sucks I've done that one.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  9. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/03/2014 11:50am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    This entry has been my approach for nearly a decade now. I have never liked the hooking of the calf approach I've always found more success with the higher reap. Additionally I have found the angle of my head during execution dictates the success of my throw and the prevention of a counter throw and allows me to continue to a harai goshi if I can't penetrate deep enough.
    Want to explain the "correct" angle for the head? I know that a common flaw in general is not aligning the head with the direction (or intended direction) of movement of tori, bending the neck (looking down). To generalize, not looking where tori intends to move and or throw.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  10. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/03/2014 11:54am

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Want to explain the "correct" angle for the head? I know that a common flaw in general is not aligning the head with the direction (or intended direction) of movement of tori, bending the neck (looking down). To generalize, not looking where tori intends to move and or throw.

    No, you nailed it on the head that's exactly what I'm talking about.
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