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  1. Anjin is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/08/2014 4:34pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    What do you think?

    Internal martial arts/ people who do zhan zhuang, what do you think of this article?

    http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/20...structure.html
  2. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/08/2014 5:49pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Too long an explanation for a simple concept. It reads more like justification of why it isn't useless than why it works.

    Here's a good explanation from Tim Cartmell:
    Zhan Zhuang initially is the most efficient method of correcting poor alignment, developing correct breathing, strengthening the postural muscles evenly, creating the correct balance between tension and relaxation, developing the kinesthetic sense, developing basic endurance and raising the threshhold for pain tolerance.

    The method is so efficient because all possible variables are reduced to a minimum (since you are standing still). The only concern is your relationship to gravity, since the complications of momentum and other external forces are not a concern. It is, therefore, easier to consciously inhibit any bad habits of body use you have acquired.

    Shili is used to test the attributes cultivated through Zhan Zhuang in motion, with the added complications of momentum and the ever changing forces acting on the balance.
    http://www.shenwu.com/discus/message...tml?1153072293
    Quick, direct, no mention of mysticism, chi or that his "prowess" proves it works. Also, it isn't an essay that meanders and confuses a reader.
  3. Anjin is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/08/2014 6:16pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It's definitely wordy, true. But

    1) I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with pointing out that skilled fighters drew merit from a practice, if only to introduce it as something of potential interest and use.. It might be justification/defense but the author is indeed a lawyer, so I'm not surprised he spends some time doing so. Regarding mentioning himself and his demos as to why it works... Ehhh I agree with you there.

    2) Neigong is inherently tied up with 'qi' in a lot of peoples minds, so I see nothing wrong with addressing that.

    3) I have Tim's XY neigong book and his standing practice section isn't brief. It also very much mentions the 'cultivation of life force' (which sounds a lot like chee to me) as well as the mind/body unity that Djurdjevic addresses.

    4) I like that this article speaks a little more on the mental aspect of zhan zhuang. Yes, I do believe that ZZ is all of those things you/Tim mentioned, but purely looking at it as a form of meditation is also worth exploring. More than just retraining the way you hold your body and building pain tolerance, I also believe that the goal of a lot of these practices is to cultivate a certain mindset, so I liked him touching on the mindfulness aspect, and the bits about intent.
    Last edited by Anjin; 4/08/2014 6:34pm at .
  4. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/08/2014 6:46pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anjin View Post
    It's definitely wordy, true. But
    No, it isn't just wordy.


    1) I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with pointing out that skilled fighters drew merit from a practice, if only to introduce it as something of potential interest and use.
    It is when you use two unrelated fighters to make a point. GSP and Silva have nothing to do with "Post" training.

    It might be justification/defense but the author is indeed a lawyer, so I'm not surprised he spends some time doing so.
    I am a writer and my degree is in Rhetoric, so it was unnecessary. See what I did there?

    2) Neigong is inherently tied up with 'qi' in a lot of peoples minds, so I see nothing wrong with addressing that.
    He meanders and confuses the issue.

    3) I have Tim's XY neigong book and his standing practice section isn't brief. It also very much mentions the 'cultivation of life force' (which sounds a lot like chee to me) as well as the mind/body unity that Djurdjevic addresses.
    You just compared a book to a blog post essay. An essay that is supposed to be educating people on a specific practice called "zhan zhuang." A book is going to delve into this issue and that is its purpose. What you just did was make a false equivocation. A book vs. an essay is a ridiculous comment. Of course a section in a book is going to be more in depth. People who buy this are normally training, about to train or are furthering their knowledge and are already full experienced.

    4) I like that this article speaks a little more on the mental aspect of zhan zhuang. Yes, I do believe that ZZ is all of those things you/Tim mentioned, but purely looking at it as a form of meditation is also worth exploring. More than just retraining the way you hold your body and building pain tolerance, I also believe that the goal of a lot of these practices is to cultivate a certain mindset, so I liked him touching on the mindfulness aspect.
    1) Then you explore it in a different article.
    2) Mental aspects are open to interpretations.
    3) Your belief doesn't make this article progressive.

    Meditation is an entirely different subject and is equal to chi arguments of mysticism vs practical. You want more mental aspects and chi in your CMA cool. I honestly don't care because everyone is entitled to train how they want.

    You asked for an opinion and I do not see it as progressive, that's why it was removed form that thread.
  5. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/08/2014 6:54pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Just to be clear, he's a decent writer that makes some informative posts. Then there are essays like the the one below that make me shake my head.

    http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/20...ble-force.html
    The irony is palpable.
    Ouch.
  6. Anjin is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/08/2014 7:22pm


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    1) I don't 'want' chi in my CMA, I just think that its not out of the ordinary to address it in regard to this subject. Is he meandering on the point, maybe. He's trying to simplify a chinese TCM paradigm to modern language.

    2) The length of Tim's own standing section (not the parts he translated) is about much the same size as this blog post, and pretty similar in content, aside from the meaningless MMA comparisons, which I agree with you on. I made the comparison on the assumption that you had the book because it's popular among XY guys, my mistake. People who read Djurdjevic's columns are also CMA/IMA people training too, so I don't know why you're making that distinction.

    3) Fair enough re: mental aspects or the mental training in ZZ, the article is really quite broad anyway. I agree that it is open to interpretation, and that people do different ZZ mental practices differently. As far as meditation and mysticism, I don't know if it's directly comparable to the Qi situation though. As far as my own post standing training, there are some mental directions being given as far as intent, where to focus vision, etc. Nothing like imagery, though.


    4) I posted it because i thought that it was an interesting, yet flawed piece generally speaking on some of the benefits of zhan zhuang and an attempt to generalize it, not because I cosign it 100%, and I posted it in the progressive thread because I didn't want to clog up the front page anymore than I already did. I suppose I could have bumped the internal arts thread in retrospect.

    5) I agree that he's inconsistent in terms of quality, and he continually overreaches. But he has his moments of interest.
  7. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/08/2014 7:38pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Anjin View Post
    1) I don't 'want' chi in my CMA, I just think that its not out of the ordinary to address it in regard to this subject. Is he meandering on the point, maybe. He's trying to simplify a chinese TCM paradigm to modern language.
    The longer the explanation, the less of a simplification.

    2) The length of Tim's own standing section (not the parts he translated) is about much the same size as this blog post, and pretty similar in content, aside from the meaningless MMA comparisons, which I agree with you on. I made the comparison on the assumption that you had the book because it's popular among XY guys, my mistake. People who read Djurdjevic's columns are also CMA/IMA people training too, so I don't know why you're making that distinction.
    No, you didn't get the distinction at all. You are not going to buy Tim's book randomly. You are going out for that specific book because of your training, beginner or advanced. As you just said, DD is trying to simplify a concept to the masses. If he was writing STRICTLY for the CMA/IMA crowd the post would be different. In other words, most people aren't going to buy a text book for light reading. They will read a blog, on that same subject, to get a rudimentary knowledge base. Yes, if you have zero knowledge of post training, Tim's book is going to read like an academic text.
    So:
    Of course a section in a book is going to be more in depth. People who buy this are normally training, about to train or are furthering their knowledge and are already full experienced.
    Tim's book is basically academic and dry. It's a good book, but the depth is more metaphysical and clinically dry. By drawing correlations to MMA, Aikido, Chi, meditation, competition, mindset and more he is meandering while trying to reach the masses with simplification. Nope, not just for internal Martial artists, he is casting a wide net.


    4) I posted it because i thought that it was an interesting, yet flawed piece generally speaking on some of the benefits of zhan zhuang and an attempt to generalize it, not because I cosign it 100%, and I posted it in the progressive thread because I didn't want to clog up the front page anymore than I already did. I suppose I could have bumped the internal arts thread in retrospect.
    Interesting is fine, I see it differently.

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