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  1. #1
    cualltaigh's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Heel Hook from bottom guard?

    So this story starts out, probably unsurprisingly, in the online ridiculing of a ninjer guard pass (from none other than Stephen K Hayes - all the more fun can be had here).

    During the conversation a black belt posted the following as a legit version of the pass (and what I'll be referring to is at 1:05 if you can't be arsed to watch the whole thing).



    So in my mind, when the passer throws the leg over to break the guard/trap the leg I have a hard time believing that the guy in bottom guard wouldn't just catch the leg in their armpit. If you look at that above video (at the 1:05 mark) the purple belt playing the guard has to actively keep his arm out of the way so that the technique can work.

    My question is - particularly for our resident heel hook aficionados (Villain? Plasma?) - if you change that underarm grip to a heel hook grip (but maintaining the closed guard), can you complete a bastardised heel hook from there?

    I had a play around with it at training last night and could complete the heel hook (despite the unorthodox leg positioning) as long as I kept the guard closed. I am wary though that it was against people not overly familiar with heel hooks and just want to make sure I'm not letting confirmation bias run rampant with my idea.

    Any help/insights would be appreciated. Cheers.
    Dum spiro, spero.
    Tada gan iarracht.

  2. #2
    Bullshido's Greatest Ninja staff
    plasma's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I assume you are talking about the Guy in the Blue Gi on the bottom. I would lean to no, because with the legs around the waist, you are not controlling the hip. And without the hip control, there is too much play in the leg to finish a heel hook. Additionally even if you caught the foot in a heel hook position, hand fighting to strip the grip from the top would be fairly easy.

    Additionally, @ 1:05 the guy on top is turning the hip of the bottom guard to force belly down. I don't see you capturing the leg in that transition, unless you are capturing it from combat base before the transition, in that case the guy on top was using a sleeve grip to control that near side arm.
    Last edited by plasma; 5/26/2016 2:14am at .

  3. #3
    cualltaigh's Avatar
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    Hi Plasma, thanks for responding!

    Quote Originally Posted by plasma View Post
    I assume you are talking about the Guy in the Blue Gi on the bottom.
    Indeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by plasma View Post
    Additionally, @ 1:05 the guy on top is turning the hip of the bottom guard to force belly down. I don't see you capturing the leg in that transition, unless you are capturing it from combat base before the transition, in that case the guy on top was using a sleeve grip to control that near side arm.
    When I was playing with it, it is the momentum of the leg over the top that turns the hip. So if I stopped the leg I could hold onto the closed guard. In the video too, he is using the sleeve grip to bait the blue gi guy to pull his hand over his head to break the grip. Even then, he kicks the arm as he swings to leg over the top. It's not guaranteed that the blue gi guy could trap it, it just seems a bit risky in my opinion from the white gi guy.

    Quote Originally Posted by plasma View Post
    I would lean to no, because with the legs around the waist, you are not controlling the hip. And without the hip control, there is too much play in the leg to finish a heel hook.
    With the leg just in the underarm (ala achilles lock grip) this is definitely true. I did find that, if I could transition to the heel hook grip it would skew his knee into my thigh which immobilised the top half of his leg enough that I could mechanically finish the heel hook. However:

    Quote Originally Posted by plasma View Post
    Additionally even if you caught the foot in a heel hook position, hand fighting to strip the grip from the top would be fairly easy.
    I think this is the part I was overlooking. You're right. Without the feet on the hip there's literally nothing preventing someone with half clue from stripping the grip.

    Thanks for your help, much appreciated!
    Dum spiro, spero.
    Tada gan iarracht.

  4. #4
    Raycetpfl's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by cualltaigh View Post
    So this story starts out, probably unsurprisingly, in the online ridiculing of a ninjer guard pass (from none other than Stephen K Hayes - all the more fun can be had here).

    During the conversation a black belt posted the following as a legit version of the pass (and what I'll be referring to is at 1:05 if you can't be arsed to watch the whole thing).



    So in my mind, when the passer throws the leg over to break the guard/trap the leg I have a hard time believing that the guy in bottom guard wouldn't just catch the leg in their armpit. If you look at that above video (at the 1:05 mark) the purple belt playing the guard has to actively keep his arm out of the way so that the technique can work.

    My question is - particularly for our resident heel hook aficionados (Villain? Plasma?) - if you change that underarm grip to a heel hook grip (but maintaining the closed guard), can you complete a bastardised heel hook from there?

    I had a play around with it at training last night and could complete the heel hook (despite the unorthodox leg positioning) as long as I kept the guard closed. I am wary though that it was against people not overly familiar with heel hooks and just want to make sure I'm not letting confirmation bias run rampant with my idea.

    Any help/insights would be appreciated. Cheers.
    This will not open a decent guard. It's highly likely a good player will sweep you for your troubles of trying.
    If you can find it working in legit competition I would put it in the maybe pile.

  5. #5
    jnp's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wow, the Boston Crab showed up in a BJJ video. CACC wrestlers watching this would probably chuckle.

    If I recall correctly, Omega showed a different version of this years ago as a guard pass. His set up was better.

    Whether you try to finish this off with an ankle lock, heelhook or the traditional CACC hamstring stretch, this move rarely works more than once on anyone with more than 5-7 years of experience. It's a bit on the gimmicky side of technique and, like the trusty old can opener, it's not hard to counter the set up.

  6. #6
    cualltaigh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnp View Post
    If I recall correctly, Omega showed a different version of this years ago as a guard pass. His set up was better.
    I think this is the one you are referring to:
    Superman Guard Pass

    His setup is better and negates my question as it doesn't just rely on the leg over to turn the hip. I think he even briefly addresses the catching of the leg at the end of the vid.
    Dum spiro, spero.
    Tada gan iarracht.

  7. #7
    cualltaigh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raycetpfl View Post
    This will not open a decent guard. It's highly likely a good player will sweep you for your troubles of trying.
    If you can find it working in legit competition I would put it in the maybe pile.
    Agreed. It was not the pass I was interested in but shutting it down by trapping the leg and seeing if there was an attack from there rather than just re-guarding.

    You'll have to forgive my somewhat ignorant curiosity, I'm only just starting to map out the dark territory of leg locks on my jiu jitsu map.
    Dum spiro, spero.
    Tada gan iarracht.

  8. #8

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Raycetpfl View Post
    This will not open a decent guard. It's highly likely a good player will sweep you for your troubles of trying.
    If you can find it working in legit competition I would put it in the maybe pile.
    I dunno. I've never faced world class or even national class guys, but I've used this in nogi tourneys with success against intermediate grapplers. Gotta snap it on fast though.

  9. #9
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I am too scared to drive this one hard in case i take my partners leg home with me. So i have done half arsed attempts and gotten half arsed results.

    I use it when they lock down guard and just hang on for glory.
    Whitsunday Martial Arts Airlie Beach North Queensland.
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  10. #10

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The guy on the bottom has all of the standard counter attacks to leg locks available. However he lacks initiative and will most likely not be able to counter.

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