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  1. mike321 is online now

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    Posted On:
    3/29/2014 8:01pm


     Style: kenpo, Wrestling

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    To-Shin-Do: Anyone experience this art before?

    Op,

    Being poorly prepared for fighting unarmed is no where near the risk of drunk driving. To equate these is completely ridiculous. Your example shows a case where being the lesser fighter still ended up ok. It was not life changing. A DUI or DUI related accident is far more likely to rearrange your life. (And I know there are examples where unarmed fighting is life changing; even in those cases learning how to stay out of the fight is far more important than learning fighting skills.)


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Last edited by mike321; 3/29/2014 8:35pm at .
  2. BJMills is online now

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    Posted On:
    3/29/2014 10:41pm


     Style: Muay Thai/Wrestling

    5
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm actually of the mind that martial arts for self defense has a pretty low percentage of usefulness no matter how good the training. Outside of a one on one situation with an unarmed opponent you're pretty much screwed no matter how skilled you are.

    The point where someone else's training is or isn't useful just isn't worth sweating. In the scheme of things it's all pretty useless.

    Because zombies.
  3. Styygens is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/30/2014 10:57am


     Style: BBT/BJJ/CJKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BJMills View Post
    I'm actually of the mind that martial arts for self defense has a pretty low percentage of usefulness no matter how good the training. Outside of a one on one situation with an unarmed opponent you're pretty much screwed no matter how skilled you are.

    The point where someone else's training is or isn't useful just isn't worth sweating. In the scheme of things it's all pretty useless.

    Because zombies.
  4. doofaloofa is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/30/2014 1:15pm

    supporting member
     Style: mma

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    You and another poster need to understand the many different uses of quotation marks.
    PM with the identity of this mysterious poster and we can start a support group

    We can call it 'Freedom of Speech Marks'
  5. Plasma is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/30/2014 3:46pm

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     Style: 柔術

    3
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DCM079 View Post
    Why? Because I am not afraid to speak my mind? We have different views about what is effective for self-defense. His issue with me was simply over my being skeptical and asking critical questions and asking to see a live demonstration of some techniques. Never in all my years of martial arts training have I been reprimanded, let alone kicked out of a school, for being critical of the self-defense techniques I have been taught. As a matter of fact, most instructors have embraced and even encouraged my skeptical attitude. I think that says a lot... I was never disruptive in class, nor rude. Mr. Stinson is a very nice guy, as are all the other instructors and students that I met. This is why I am so critical. I worry for their safety if ever they might need to use their knowledge. I don't believe that is so bad...

    You might want to take a look at history. History almost always eventually vindicates those who spoke up for what is right or true. That is all I'm doing because I care about others, and that makes me an” ass”? Give me a break. My comments were entirely tame compared to the vile that I've seen spewed here on Bullshido so I don't believe people who live in glass houses ought to throw stones.

    Thank you.
    No. Because you go behind your instructor’s back to complain about this teaching style while never confronting him personally. After your instructor finds your posts, you try to retract everything you say publicly on the forum and realize you can’t.
  6. DCM079 is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/24/2014 10:14am


     Style: Reality Based Martial Art

    -2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Plasma View Post
    No. Because you go behind your instructor’s back to complain about this teaching style while never confronting him personally. After your instructor finds your posts, you try to retract everything you say publicly on the forum and realize you can’t.
    On the contrary, I did ask several questions to both the head instructor and a few of the assistant instructors. Once I asked one of the assistant instructors as he was making the rounds, watching students perform a stick fighting technique, if he would hit me with a stick in the leg so I could feel if the technique we were being taught would do any damage. After practicing the technique over a number of weeks I felt confident with it but did not believe it had any stopping power. So I thought I'd ask the instructor if he'd perform it on me, because perhaps I wasn't doing right. When one of the instructors came over I asked him to hit me in the leg. He laughed and refused. I asked again, telling him that I was serious, and he made a remark, asking if I was questioning its effectiveness. I said, no, I just wanted to feel it. He just told me to trust him that it works, and after seeing that I wasn't going to get an answer I just dropped it and continued with the drill. I've done a fair amount of stick fighting and I know how to generate power with a stick and I did not trust this technique to stop an aggressor, so I politely asked a question, but it was dismissed.

    In another instance, the head instructor was talking to the class and he mentions how in real life your actions will become much smaller and tighter than in your training, so when one trains to make sure that all of your actions are very large. In my own training I was taught the opposite, that in a real life self-defense situation your actions become much larger and that you should train with as tight and as controlled of techniques as possible because they're only going to get about 25% larger in real life, and therefore less accurate. My own experiences and fights I'd been in also confirmed this.

    When the head instructor said this, I made a comment that I thought this idea was interesting because I'd always experienced the opposite. His only response was that this was a “very rare” experience and he immediately moved on to the next topic. I was disappointed with the flippant response to say the least.

    I did try to ask questions. And I tried to do so without causing a scene or being disruptive. I tried to ask critical questions and I noted their responses, because if someone teaches something that works then they should have no problems answering simple questions. As a teacher myself, I'd welcome a students' questions, regardless of what it was. If he questioned something I taught, then I'd say that's a good thing. It shows that he's engaged with the material and is learning. And if need be, I'd gladly provide a “live” demonstration to show him that it works. I'd let him try whatever technique he wanted to stop the technique he questioned and show him that it works to alleviate his curiosity. I'd never expect a student to just accept my word just because I was a black belt.

    I also think it's important to understand that I saw some very troubling things. It all came to a head the evening the head instructor talked to me about this forum post. He mentioned that even **prior** to this post he was going to talk to me about my being critical of some of the things being taught and my “questioning” of things. I was taken aback to be honest. I've been asking critical questions throughout my martial arts career, even when I was a lowly orange belt in Taekwondo. I sometimes would ask the instructor about modifying techniques or what would happen if the attacker did this, or that, and he answered all of my questions and oftentimes agreed with me about the suggestions I made. Never in my martial arts career had I been essentially scolded for asking too many questions. He basically went on a rant, accusing me of not learning anything and failing to properly practice the techniques. I didn't know what to say to this because I was basically in shock.

    Something the head instructor told me near the beginning of my training there was that he wanted me to feel free to incorporate my past martial arts training into the curriculum I was learning and not to just stick with the basics he was teaching the students. So that's what I did. Oftentimes I'd practice just what I was being taught. Sometimes I'd mix in other techniques and there were times I'd practice only my previous martial arts techniques I've learned. Sometimes I'd randomly switch back and forth between the old and the new during drills because oftentimes, once I felt I had the technique down I'd begin to play around with it and begin to incorporate my previous techniques.

    I didn't think I was doing anything wrong because I thought I had his approval to mix and match everything I was learning. Besides, I wasn't doing anything I hadn't done in every single martial arts school I ever attended so I didn't think anything of it. This is also odd since in my first belt promotion I did my best to perform the techniques as close as possible to how they practice them (without any modifications) and I thought I did rather well. In fact, the head instructor commented afterwards that he saw exactly what he wanted from me and said I did a very good job. So... what the heck? What am I supposed to think here? He obviously knew that I knew the material.

    Like I said, that evening I was in shock and did not defend myself from his ridiculous charges. Though, to be fair it is possible that I misunderstood what he meant. But rather than abruptly kicking me out of the school, maybe **he** should've talked to me, rather than just assume that I wasn't paying attention (which seems like an unlikely excuse anyhow since he obviously saw I knew the material).

    During the pre-class “life lessons” time, where we discussed the underlying philosophy of Ninjutsu and of living a good life, etc. I thought these discussions were interesting. I agreed with much the instructor had to say as well as the other students. The issue of integrity was often discussed. I was asking questions and expressing my opinions; in other words, having integrity. But, then I was punished for having integrity.

    In the beginning of the training I liked what I heard from the head instructor. I recall he made a comment once about how he encourages students to go learn other martial arts because he was confident that what he taught was the best and he knew the students would return. I liked how he incorporated the Gracie Combatives into the Ninjutsu training, since he said he believed it meshed well with the existing Ninjutsu ground fighting curriculum. He seemed pretty progressive. But when I would ask questions that progressive appearance disappeared and he seems to have taken great offense to my asking of basic critical questions about what he was teaching. I don't know about you, but that raises some red flags for me. It tells me he is not confident in what he teaches or else he wouldn't have reacted that way. The contradictions abound and I really do not understand it. All I know is that I wish he and the other instructors would have practiced what they preached.

    This post was longer than I originally meant it to be, but yes, I did ask questions and they were clearly aware that I had some issues with some of the curriculum. And since I was obviously not getting any answers there, I thought I'd see if anyone had experience in the art here.

    I'd also like to say one last thing. To be clear, I did learn some things of value and I did not disagree with everything that was being taught. I think with some modifications and a revamping of the current training methods, some of the stuff would be very effective. For instance, I asked the head instructor about what their knife defense is like and be demonstrated it to me, and I was mildly impressed. It really was not bad. With slight modifications I think it could have been very effective.

    I'm sorry, but you have a drastically distorted picture of the situation. Besides, when you're dealing with something as serious as self-defense (something someone might trust their life on, like a surgeon) I think a little critical thinking goes a long way and I think it's shameful that people are discouraged from asking critical questions by many martial artists.

    Finally, to those who have scoffed at my healthy skepticism regarding self-defense, brutal attacks happen and you can never predict when or where they might occur so many people take martial arts to learn to protect themselves. Arguing that the likelihood of being attacked is slim is no response because we all carry insurance “just in case” (at least most of it who are able to afford it). While we don't expect to be involved in any accidents and we hope it doesn't happen, if it ever does I don't think there's a person in the world who would dismiss getting insurance or give up their insurance, “just because” they're not in accidents every week. Taking martial arts for self-defense is the same thing. Statistically, it probably won't happen, but there is that chance, and I'd rather be ready.

    I hope this helps to clear up this misunderstanding. And just quick a tip: It helps to know all sides of a story before jumping to conclusions. Thanks.

    P.S. I said quite clearly previously that I stood by everything that I said, so how you can misconsrue that as trying to "retract" everything I said is entirely false. If you're talking about my request to edit my initial post, I wanted to include more of my reasons for being skepical, I just did, so better late then never I suppose.
    Last edited by DCM079; 5/24/2014 10:22am at .
  7. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/24/2014 11:01am

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     Style: xingyi

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DCM079 View Post
    On the contrary, I did ask several questions to both the head instructor and a few of the assistant instructors. Once I asked one of the assistant instructors as he was making the rounds, watching students perform a stick fighting technique, if he would hit me with a stick in the leg so I could feel if the technique we were being taught would do any damage. After practicing the technique over a number of weeks I felt confident with it but did not believe it had any stopping power. So I thought I'd ask the instructor if he'd perform it on me, because perhaps I wasn't doing right. When one of the instructors came over I asked him to hit me in the leg. He laughed and refused. I asked again, telling him that I was serious, and he made a remark, asking if I was questioning its effectiveness. I said, no, I just wanted to feel it. He just told me to trust him that it works, and after seeing that I wasn't going to get an answer I just dropped it and continued with the drill. I've done a fair amount of stick fighting and I know how to generate power with a stick and I did not trust this technique to stop an aggressor, so I politely asked a question, but it was dismissed.

    In another instance, the head instructor was talking to the class and he mentions how in real life your actions will become much smaller and tighter than in your training, so when one trains to make sure that all of your actions are very large. In my own training I was taught the opposite, that in a real life self-defense situation your actions become much larger and that you should train with as tight and as controlled of techniques as possible because they're only going to get about 25% larger in real life, and therefore less accurate. My own experiences and fights I'd been in also confirmed this.

    When the head instructor said this, I made a comment that I thought this idea was interesting because I'd always experienced the opposite. His only response was that this was a “very rare” experience and he immediately moved on to the next topic. I was disappointed with the flippant response to say the least.

    I did try to ask questions. And I tried to do so without causing a scene or being disruptive. I tried to ask critical questions and I noted their responses, because if someone teaches something that works then they should have no problems answering simple questions. As a teacher myself, I'd welcome a students' questions, regardless of what it was. If he questioned something I taught, then I'd say that's a good thing. It shows that he's engaged with the material and is learning. And if need be, I'd gladly provide a “live” demonstration to show him that it works. I'd let him try whatever technique he wanted to stop the technique he questioned and show him that it works to alleviate his curiosity. I'd never expect a student to just accept my word just because I was a black belt.

    I also think it's important to understand that I saw some very troubling things. It all came to a head the evening the head instructor talked to me about this forum post. He mentioned that even **prior** to this post he was going to talk to me about my being critical of some of the things being taught and my “questioning” of things. I was taken aback to be honest. I've been asking critical questions throughout my martial arts career, even when I was a lowly orange belt in Taekwondo. I sometimes would ask the instructor about modifying techniques or what would happen if the attacker did this, or that, and he answered all of my questions and oftentimes agreed with me about the suggestions I made. Never in my martial arts career had I been essentially scolded for asking too many questions. He basically went on a rant, accusing me of not learning anything and failing to properly practice the techniques. I didn't know what to say to this because I was basically in shock.

    Something the head instructor told me near the beginning of my training there was that he wanted me to feel free to incorporate my past martial arts training into the curriculum I was learning and not to just stick with the basics he was teaching the students. So that's what I did. Oftentimes I'd practice just what I was being taught. Sometimes I'd mix in other techniques and there were times I'd practice only my previous martial arts techniques I've learned. Sometimes I'd randomly switch back and forth between the old and the new during drills because oftentimes, once I felt I had the technique down I'd begin to play around with it and begin to incorporate my previous techniques.

    I didn't think I was doing anything wrong because I thought I had his approval to mix and match everything I was learning. Besides, I wasn't doing anything I hadn't done in every single martial arts school I ever attended so I didn't think anything of it. This is also odd since in my first belt promotion I did my best to perform the techniques as close as possible to how they practice them (without any modifications) and I thought I did rather well. In fact, the head instructor commented afterwards that he saw exactly what he wanted from me and said I did a very good job. So... what the heck? What am I supposed to think here? He obviously knew that I knew the material.

    Like I said, that evening I was in shock and did not defend myself from his ridiculous charges. Though, to be fair it is possible that I misunderstood what he meant. But rather than abruptly kicking me out of the school, maybe **he** should've talked to me, rather than just assume that I wasn't paying attention (which seems like an unlikely excuse anyhow since he obviously saw I knew the material).

    During the pre-class “life lessons” time, where we discussed the underlying philosophy of Ninjutsu and of living a good life, etc. I thought these discussions were interesting. I agreed with much the instructor had to say as well as the other students. The issue of integrity was often discussed. I was asking questions and expressing my opinions; in other words, having integrity. But, then I was punished for having integrity.

    In the beginning of the training I liked what I heard from the head instructor. I recall he made a comment once about how he encourages students to go learn other martial arts because he was confident that what he taught was the best and he knew the students would return. I liked how he incorporated the Gracie Combatives into the Ninjutsu training, since he said he believed it meshed well with the existing Ninjutsu ground fighting curriculum. He seemed pretty progressive. But when I would ask questions that progressive appearance disappeared and he seems to have taken great offense to my asking of basic critical questions about what he was teaching. I don't know about you, but that raises some red flags for me. It tells me he is not confident in what he teaches or else he wouldn't have reacted that way. The contradictions abound and I really do not understand it. All I know is that I wish he and the other instructors would have practiced what they preached.

    This post was longer than I originally meant it to be, but yes, I did ask questions and they were clearly aware that I had some issues with some of the curriculum. And since I was obviously not getting any answers there, I thought I'd see if anyone had experience in the art here.

    I'd also like to say one last thing. To be clear, I did learn some things of value and I did not disagree with everything that was being taught. I think with some modifications and a revamping of the current training methods, some of the stuff would be very effective. For instance, I asked the head instructor about what their knife defense is like and be demonstrated it to me, and I was mildly impressed. It really was not bad. With slight modifications I think it could have been very effective.

    I'm sorry, but you have a drastically distorted picture of the situation. Besides, when you're dealing with something as serious as self-defense (something someone might trust their life on, like a surgeon) I think a little critical thinking goes a long way and I think it's shameful that people are discouraged from asking critical questions by many martial artists.

    Finally, to those who have scoffed at my healthy skepticism regarding self-defense, brutal attacks happen and you can never predict when or where they might occur so many people take martial arts to learn to protect themselves. Arguing that the likelihood of being attacked is slim is no response because we all carry insurance “just in case” (at least most of it who are able to afford it). While we don't expect to be involved in any accidents and we hope it doesn't happen, if it ever does I don't think there's a person in the world who would dismiss getting insurance or give up their insurance, “just because” they're not in accidents every week. Taking martial arts for self-defense is the same thing. Statistically, it probably won't happen, but there is that chance, and I'd rather be ready.
    Ah yes, the logical fallacy laden "here's what I really meant." Yes, we got it right, you REALLY wanted to change your OP to save face with your instructor.

    I hope this helps to clear up this misunderstanding.
    Nope. It's always interesting watching someone backtrack and then come back later to tell us, "see, you are wrong, you didn't know the entire story."

    And just quick a tip: It helps to know all sides of a story before jumping to conclusions. Thanks.
    Funny how you didn't follow your own advice, but here you sit trying to tell people what they should do. I do enjoy your hypocrisy and irony.


    P.S. I said quite clearly previously that I stood by everything that I said, so how you can misconsrue that as trying to "retract" everything I said is entirely false. If you're talking about my request to edit my initial post, I wanted to include more of my reasons for being skepical, I just did, so better late then never I suppose.
    Better late than never? Naw, this is you being forced to retract what you said, to continue training at the school. Now, when you are done, you explain your side of the story to make yourself look better. Yes, this is a conclusion I am jumping to. Just like all of yours above.
    Last edited by It is Fake; 5/24/2014 11:22am at .
  8. Bezmond is online now

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    Posted On:
    5/24/2014 11:37am


     Style: Taijiquan, Karate

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DCM079 View Post
    This post was longer than I originally meant it to be...
    Just let it all out.

    That's right.

    Now take a deep, cleansing breath.
  9. Plasma is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/25/2014 1:40am

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     Style: 柔術

    9
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Simple answer is don't train there if it is such a problem. I am not a fan of the X-kans or ToShinDo. So instead of going to a ToShinDo school and then bitching about it to strangers on the Internet, I just don't train at a ToShinDo school. Its no big secret that the Hatsumi lineage arts teach more LaRPing than actual combatitives. But if your primary goal is the learn the Ninja arts, then that is the right place. There are plenty of other schools that teach effective self defense.
    Last edited by Plasma; 5/25/2014 2:33am at .
  10. futabachan is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/31/2014 1:46am


     Style: naginata

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DCM079 View Post
    (long post is long)

    This post was longer than I originally meant it to be....

    (long post gets longer)
    Has anyone ever told you about the First Law of Holes?
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