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  1. DCM079 is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/24/2014 5:42pm


     Style: Reality Based Martial Art

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    To-Shin-Do: Anyone experience this art before?

    For those who aren't aware To-Shin-Do is the updated version of Ninjutsu founded by Stephen Hayes. You can find out more about it on it's Wikipedia page (sorry, still new and can't post links yet).

    I'd been out of training for a number of years but recently got back into it. Since I already received a black belt in one art I thought I'd try another. Growing up I was fascinated by Ninjutsu and I read all of Stephen Hayes' books and for a while I'd considered trying out this art.

    Is it effective for self-defense? What kind of techniques are taught?

    I found a school not far from where I live and I decided to try it out about six months ago.

    They don't spar - at all, and don't seem to believe it's worth even trying. I think I recall the instructor say how sparring is only for stroking the ego. The only kind of "sparring" they do is called "free response" where they move at about half to a quarter speed when attacking and the defender does a series of strikes, locks and throws against some kind of attack, like a knife stab, tackle or strike. Most of the defenses all seem very complicated, so much so that, if done quickly, I don't think would work against a determined attacker.

    I was pretty disappointed by this lack of sparring (since I'm used to a lot of it), but I decided to join after the trial was up to get more exposure to the art before making up my mind.

    Honestly, I'm not very impressed. They don't do any real contact at all. The only contact they do is this pushing kind of impact when they practice the techniques, which I don't believe would be that effective. It's explosive power that does damage, not pushing force. That pushing force might move someone, but it's not going to cause damage to the area struck (unless the person trips over something and gets hurt).

    One cool thing they do is jiu-jitsu. The instructor is ranked through the Gracie Jiu-Jitsu Combatives program so we've been doing that the last few months. It's been interesting and fun to learn.

    Does anyone have anything else to add about To-Shin-Do? Or the Gracie Combatives program? I did see a thread here about the Combatives, but someone thought it was a scam because the testing is done through videos. I don't think that criticism is fair since from what I've heard the Gracies are very specific on exactly how they want you to do the techniques and won't pass you if you're not perfect. I also think you have to go down to the Gracie Academy to take a test in front of them to become officially certified and ranked after learning everything through their dvd series.
  2. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/24/2014 6:44pm

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     Style: xingyi

    3
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ahhhhh...... boy oh boy. This is the investigative forum read this thread to understand the rules for posting or starting threads in this area:
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=57547

    We also have a google search which, will bring you these thread:
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=61604
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=69751
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=45458
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=61604

    Also, depends on what you mean and which certification.
    This is the original Gracie Combatives:
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=61440

    It is not to be mixed with the ficed and updated Gracie University form of Gracie Combatives:
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=82251

    https://www.gracieuniversity.com/default.aspx

    Which, since its inception, has distanced itself completely fromm the failed McDojo and Bullshidoist used Gracie Combatives program. You might want to see which one they are certified in or, better yet, just go learn BJJ or GJJ.
    Last edited by It is Fake; 3/24/2014 6:55pm at .
  3. DCM079 is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/24/2014 7:17pm


     Style: Reality Based Martial Art

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks for the heads up on posting in this forum and for the links. I'll check em out when I can. They look interesting. I'm especially interested in this offshoot of Gracie Combatives. I've never heard that there are two different courses.
  4. jspeedy is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/24/2014 7:19pm


     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Are you sure this To Shi Do school was "the real"? Perhaps the instructor of the school you visited broke off from the original real group and cut out the sparring and all the good stuff? Are you sure you've been going long enough to make a fair judgement?

    Are you sure this To Shi Do school was "the real"? Perhaps the instructor of the school you visited broke off from the original real group and cut out the sparring and all the good stuff? Are you sure you've been going long enough to make a fair judgement?
  5. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/24/2014 8:15pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DCM079 View Post
    Thanks for the heads up on posting in this forum and for the links. I'll check em out when I can. They look interesting. I'm especially interested in this offshoot of Gracie Combatives. I've never heard that there are two different courses.
    The Original Combatives program gave out Certificates with no trsting for purchasing their program. Many charlatans used this certificate to claim they had ground skills and understood BJJ.

    Gracie University may be the same program, but it is closely monitored and you have to actually live test to receive legit rank.
  6. DCM079 is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/24/2014 8:31pm


     Style: Reality Based Martial Art

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hi jspeedy,

    Yes, I'm sure they are an official affiliate. If you Google "Phoenix Quest Center" you should be able to find their website. There is a picture of him, his wife, and Stephen Hayes at their school on the site, plus I've seen his hand written rank certificate on their wall.

    No, they don't do any sparring at all. That's one of the first things I asked when I joined the school and he said what I reported in the first post in this thread. I was really disappointed because I looked at several YouTube videos of To-Shin-Do training and it seemed like decent stuff.

    My guess is that he does it out of liability concerns and from what I gathered it seems like people used to hit a little too hard and that's when he stopped it. Still... that's part of self-defense training. I got my nose broken once and on a separate occasion I had to see a doctor about some very black and blue tender parts of my anatomy years ago.

    I'm pretty sure I've been there long enough to get a feel for the training. I've also watched a number of the higher belts and a lot of their training consists of the "free response" drills I mentioned before. It's been six months and I'm a yellow belt now and half way to the next rank.
  7. DCM079 is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/24/2014 8:41pm


     Style: Reality Based Martial Art

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    jspeedy,

    Yes, I'm sure they are an official affiliate. If you Google "Phoenix Quest Center" you should be able to find their website. There is a picture of him, his wife, and Stephen Hayes at their school, plus I've seen his hand written rank certificate on their wall.

    No, they don't do any sparring at all. That's one of the first things I asked when I joined the school and he said what I reported in the first post in this thread. I was really disappointed because I looked at several YouTube videos of To-Shin-Do training and it seemed like decent stuff.

    My guess is that he does it out of liability concerns and from what I gathered it seems like people used to hit a little too hard and that's when he stopped it. Still... that's part of self-defense training. I got my nose broken once and on a separate occasion I had to see a doctor about some very black and blue tender parts of my anatomy years ago.

    I'm pretty sure I've been there long enough to get a feel for the training. I've also watched a number of the higher belts and a lot of their training consists of the “free response” drills I mentioned before. It's been six months and I'm a yellow belt now and half way to the next rank.
  8. DCM079 is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/25/2014 12:02pm


     Style: Reality Based Martial Art

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jspeedy View Post
    Are you sure this To Shi Do school was "the real"? Perhaps the instructor of the school you visited broke off from the original real group and cut out the sparring and all the good stuff? Are you sure you've been going long enough to make a fair judgement?
    Yes, I'm sure. I've seen pictures on their website of the instructor and Stephen Hayes at the school; also his handwritten certification. I was very disappointed because that's one thing I was looking forward to, but from the sounds of things, I think the instructor believed students were getting too rough and decided to cut out any real contact. I've been there about six months and I've also watched several of the advanced students do their training on numerous occasions so I've seen that there is no sparring. Plus, the instructor came right out and told me that there is no sparring :0 )
  9. Styygens is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/25/2014 6:29pm


     Style: BBT/BJJ/CJKD

    5
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm with IIF, if you're there because of the BJJ, you're going to be better off in the long run just going to train BJJ somewhere.

    If you're there to play ninja, well... Play ninja all you want, but I think you're going to end up feeling mighty disappointed. So you're still better off finding a BJJ school.
  10. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/25/2014 7:22pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I looked at the website, where is his combatives certification?
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