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  1. SmartAnimal is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/19/2014 10:20pm

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     Style: Kali Ilustrisimo / BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Cross Training for Short Power

    Hey everyone,
    Question:

    The art I study (Kali Ilustrisimo) has a very big emphasis on adding power to blade strikes by twisting the hips and adding torque, tensing the grip only upon impact (sound familiar?)

    I don't know much about CMA or the "internal" arts (I know that's kind of a false dichotomy but for lack of a better term) other than geeking out and reading about it. I very briefly did Chen Style Tai Chi but not nearly long enough to even do push hands, so I'm basically asking as a complete outsider.

    My question is, are there exercises you guys do to practice that kinetic linking or is it more a product of training the entire system? Is it well defined set of exercises like iron fist or chi gong? Or is it more embedded in the context of how you're trained, coming more as a byproduct of learning the system?

    Basically, is there anything you guys could suggest I practice to generate more power from my core/hips/feet without having to learn an entire system? Or is it too deeply woven into the rest of the training to extract?

    Although I'd like to get into Xing Yi some day, my plate is pretty full at the moment as far as what I'm learning; i think my striking is well-covered enough that it doesn't justify adding a whole other striking approach before learning grappling (i've only ever really trained striking arts).

    I definitely don't mean to disrespect anyone's system and imply that i could take from it with a "buffet" approach but since it seems like the consensus here is that "CMA" concepts apply pretty much across the board (right?), maybe there's something I might be able to apply.

    Thanks in advance for any help!
  2. PizDoff is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/21/2014 3:51pm

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     Style: Grappling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Not sure why this needed to be modded but thread approved :P
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  3. Anjin is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/21/2014 5:14pm


     Style: Xingyi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hmm. I can only speak from my (XY) perspective but short power (cun jin) is something that you get to some ways down the road. The linkages/whole body power you're mentioning are something all the internals seem to emphasize, but typically there is an order to things. I was instructed to focus on long power (larger steps, more extension, faster and more 'hard' movements) first.


    Short power comes next using various exercises and changing mechanics a bit. I asked my teacher why we dont learn some of the more exposive short power movements and he said you need the coordination that the larger gross movements and basic training give you first. I kind of agree with him, because I get the feeling I might have hurt some of my joints doing some of the stuff I am now. Im not sure its a good idea to pick and choose some of these exercises.
  4. jspeedy is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/21/2014 6:02pm


     Style: FMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I train Balintawak Arnis, I've never trained Illustrissimo but the motions you describe sound similar to our power generation, pivot on the balls of the feet, torque the hips, follow with the shoulder, than elbow, and finish with a pump of the wrist . I tell guys to hit with the earth, not their arm. Other systems emphasize more of a snapping motion of the wrist or dropping and planting weight to generate force, some don't seem to give it much thought, they just hit ****.

    Our systems sound at least similar in approach. I think if you want to refine your power generation take a less esoteric approach, boxing and muay thai both seem to generate power in the same way i'm used to in Balintawak it's less mystical but it works. Hitting a bag will help with conditioning and power generation. Some systems I see like Silat use short power but the power generation method is entirely different, same for wing chun, short power that differs greatly in generation method from boxing.

    Just lift weights, hit the major muscle groups, do some sprints if you want to build explosive power. I think solo training helps a lot for this stuff, unless you do a lot of drills that involve stick on stick contact, that will condition the hell out of you. Some guys are big advocates of training with heavy sticks, I think one should train with all weights. Some guys put too much emphasis on big ass sticks and lose the refined motion from using a lighter weapon at times.
  5. Anjin is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/21/2014 6:59pm


     Style: Xingyi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    ****, why not. OP, if you still feel you wanna give it a try you can give some of these a try. These 'whipping' exercises are more advanced material from the tang shou tao system. They're meant to develop that 'shock' type blow. They're called white crane exercises, I dont know if they're from that system though.

    Check here at ~6:20


    These internal force dynamics dvd's basically contain a lot of that material too, I reckon based off these previews (and since they're from the same system):





    While attempting stuff like this, please make sure that you do them slow. Use your whole body, but start motion from your hips and absolutely make sure you do not whip them out too hard at first. Integration of your whole body and correct movements are more important than explosiveness at first. Do NOT extend your limbs all the way, just as if you were shadowboxing. you'll damage your joints. If you can, try and make sure you stretch well before you do these.
  6. gregaquaman is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/22/2014 1:30am

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     Style: mma /boxing/muai thai

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Could you try some of those cool new cross fit style jobs. Like beating a tire with a sledge hammer.
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  7. SmartAnimal is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/22/2014 2:34am

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     Style: Kali Ilustrisimo / BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks for the advice everyone. I agree that larger movements are good starting points to tighten up and make more compact with practice.

    @jspeedy I've trained a little Muay Thai but my hands weren't boxing caliber, I suppose it wouldn't hurt to get back on the heavy bag though. Where I train we do the abecedario on one of those giant ropes, I do notice a little more snap after working on it. That's a good analogy about hitting with the earth. Do you do any other plyometrics besides sprints that you find especially helpful? Especially with quick retreating - advancing footwork?

    @gregaquaman I just got finished doing that #crossfit
  8. jspeedy is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/23/2014 5:07pm


     Style: FMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I also do FMA burpees, but that's mainly just to make the class challenging and up the fitness level of students. I think a lot of the FMA power generation is sport specific, so endless reps and conditioning will help you. Hitting tires with sticks and the bag empty hand will help you out. Taking on another art might be counter productive depending on how new you are to the art. You don't see boxers/muay thai guys going to other systems to learn fighting attributes this might be a crappy analogy but I think it holds merit. The old question "How do I get better at pullups" provides a similar answer, the solution is "Do more pullups" or you could "do reverse dumbell flys, stability ball squats, yoga, and pilates" which advice sounds like a recipe for success?



    I have a bunch of variations to this basic exercise, it can be done at various fitness levels as you'll see. The point is to work hard and keep a somewhat combative mindset and don't lose your weapon.
  9. SmartAnimal is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/23/2014 6:57pm

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     Style: Kali Ilustrisimo / BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jspeedy View Post
    I also do FMA burpees, but that's mainly just to make the class challenging and up the fitness level of students. I think a lot of the FMA power generation is sport specific, so endless reps and conditioning will help you. Hitting tires with sticks and the bag empty hand will help you out. Taking on another art might be counter productive depending on how new you are to the art. You don't see boxers/muay thai guys going to other systems to learn fighting attributes this might be a crappy analogy but I think it holds merit. The old question "How do I get better at pullups" provides a similar answer, the solution is "Do more pullups" or you could "do reverse dumbell flys, stability ball squats, yoga, and pilates" which advice sounds like a recipe for success?



    I have a bunch of variations to this basic exercise, it can be done at various fitness levels as you'll see. The point is to work hard and keep a somewhat combative mindset and don't lose your weapon.


    Good points. Yea i definitely don't feel it's justifiable to learn a new system, as i mentioned in my original post, if i were to jump into something new, it would be something on the ground as opposed to a whole new stand up/striking approach as I think I have enough to absorb with my ilustrisimo training.

    I guess i figured that although the idea of generating power at short distance is not exclusive to CMA, from my limited exposure to the CMA, i've been able to apply small, compartmentalized exercises like the silk reeling exercise to help my balance and sense of grounding. I thought there might be something quick and simple that I could try or keep in mind to apply to my training.

    I think you're right though that the most efficient approach would probably just to do reps of sport specific stuff. Would you say that short power comes more from knowing a strike from repetition to the point where you can kind of abbreviate the movements and maintain power?
  10. jspeedy is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/23/2014 8:48pm


     Style: FMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Your thoughts represent my thinking exactly. You repeat a strike enough and you can tighten up the movement as you become more efficient.

    We didn't really get into semantics (thanks god) but I suppose the definition of short power is arguable. Generally, when I hear the term short power I think of more esoteric striking methods that we don't see as frequently in sports combat. Some styles think it's bad to chamber or load up for a strike. However, most experienced systems that use chambering incorporate this into defense. A boxer fires his shots from a tight defense with hands up protecting his face. So in my mind the retraction necessary before a strike isn't a wasted movement in fact it's just the opposite as a defensive movement it's just as important if not more so than the strike. I've always seen "short power" demonstrated on a compliant partner. Bruce Lee's one inch punch is the perfect example. However, if you are using a proper defense you shouldn't really have a need for the more esoteric short power approach. You arms will always be either throwing a strike or up by your face protecting, never somehow paused half way between you and the opponent. I've seen various slaps, ridge hands, ect. that will surely hurt, but to stop an attack you need knockout power.

    Your thoughts represent my thinking exactly. You repeat a strike enough and you can tighten up the movement as you become more efficient.

    We didn't really get into semantics (thanks god) but I suppose the definition of short power is arguable. Generally, when I hear the term short power I think of more esoteric striking methods that we don't see as frequently in sports combat. Some styles think it's bad to chamber or load up for a strike. However, most experienced systems that use chambering incorporate this into defense. A boxer fires his shots from a tight defense with hands up protecting his face. So in my mind the retraction necessary before a strike isn't a wasted movement in fact it's just the opposite as a defensive movement it's just as important if not more so than the strike. I've always seen "short power" demonstrated on a compliant partner. Bruce Lee's one inch punch is the perfect example. However, if you are using a proper defense you shouldn't really have a need for the more esoteric short power approach. You arms will always be either throwing a strike or up by your face protecting, never somehow paused half way between you and the opponent. I've seen various slaps, ridge hands, ect. that will surely hurt, but to stop an attack you need knockout power.
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