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  1. BKR is online now
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    3/03/2014 8:37pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2 View Post
    This is so full of weasel words that you manage to say nothing. Define "physically capable". Define "competitive level". Define "more hours".

    It's incontrovertible that some people have more talent than others. Some people are prodigies and can put in less effort--much, much less--to attain similar results in some given field. I'm enormously and frequently in favor of teaching people (especially kids) the value of effort, of overcoming a lack of talent, all that jazz. But it doesn't help anyone to pretend that we can all be BJ Penn. Talent exists.

    Furthermore, natural athletes are joined in their superiority, I've recently noticed, by totally normal people who were simply given rich and thorough exposure to athletics at a young age. People who did judo since they were five, or who did power or Olympic lifting since they were fourteen, are given a huge step up even if they don't follow it very far and get distracted for a decade.
    That would be me 40+ years ago, and my two boys now, in terms of exposure to athletics and just plain running around all day and being encouraged to do so. Both are very well coordinated, as are most of their country boy and girl brethren and sistren. The same works for academics as well.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  2. BKR is online now
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    3/03/2014 8:42pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrackFox View Post
    I agree with you 100% here but...

    The guy has a very good record of training people to be good at what they do. Part of what he teaches is technique, but another part is that he gets people really believing that if they put in the work, they will see the progress. He does this to the extent that he tells them to block people on facebook if they are constantly posting negative stuff. The mental aspect is important.

    I think most people do use "talent" as an excuse as to why they didn't achieve what wanted. While I still believe in talent, I actually think it makes better sense to pretend that it doesn't - at least while I'm training. It's not like it's a variable I can control anyway.
    Doing the work is critical of course. Of course, if a guy puts in the work, he will see progress. Rate of progress and ultimate skill can be highly modified by natural talent among other things.

    The teacher is surely correct to be positive with his students, more power too him. It's all about relative performance to where you start, really. Exception would be those who aspire to elite level competition. It's still relative, but there is a sort of absolute level of performance that will be necessary, and not everybody will have the time, talent, or energy to get there and succeed.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  3. BKR is online now
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    3/03/2014 8:47pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrackFox View Post
    Again, yes I know this.


    I know it's not the same, but I've spent the last 5 years just trying to stop people grabbing the back of my collar. I've tried really hard, I've got scars and all that, but I'm still letting them do exactly the same stuff as ever. I'm probably never going to learn, but I do enjoy the training on most days, so I don't see the point in acknowledging that I might not be as talented as those guys who have leap-frogged me in training.

    I'd much rather just work on my daiashi to tai otoshi so I can plant them on their backs, and remind them where they came from.
    In case I was sounding pedantic with you, I didn't intend to do so.

    Regarding the grabbing the back of your collar thing, you can't stop it all the time (yeah, I know, you know that already). I've been there and done that one, being 5'7" "tall". And yes you can learn to avoid/block/counter that grip (not all the time, but more than 50% of the time for sure).

    I think your attitude is a great one, BTW, to work on a sequence to throw despite the "superior" grip.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  4. BKR is online now
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    3/03/2014 8:52pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post
    These are just some musings according to me, so don't get all pissy because I'm not giving sources or it conflicts with some book you read. Just some personal observations here.

    For a long time I've been hugely interested in the subject of how people become great at things. All kinds of things. It just happens to fascinate me.

    One of the biggest factors that I've noticed is how intensely people throw themselves into something early on in their pursuit of an activity. I've noticed that people who become great at stuff usually stand out quickly. It seems much less common for people to toil at something for years and years and finally reach a level of greatness. It doesn't take that long to learn stuff if you're studying properly and with intensity.

    One area where this really jumped out at me was with guitarists. When I was learning to play guitar I was curious about training methods different players used and how they got so good. A lot of them just threw themselves into it and became better in a short period of time than most people become in a lifetime of playing. Eddie Van Halen basically just lived in his bedroom learning to play and could play all of Clapton's stuff note for note within like two years, if I remember correctly. Slash had only been playing guitar for around 5 or 6 years when he wrote and played all the stuff on Appetite for Destruction. There's a long list of guitarists with stories like that.

    Anyway, I'm not sure how all that ties in with natural talent, but it's just something I've noticed and it's semi-related. So, whatever bitches.
    OCD like qualities are important to success is an observation I've made over the years. When I was training to compete seriously, all I did was 1.) go to school and study 2.) Do Judo and judo related physical training.

    That was my focus. Also, I tried to learn as much as possible about Judo academically as well. Probably because I was such a good academic student as well.

    Even with wonderful god given talents, to get to the top, you gotta work your ass off.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  5. gregaquaman is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/04/2014 12:29am

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     Style: mma /boxing/muai thai

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrackFox View Post
    Today in work I got a flash back to a minor argument I had with one of the leading BJJ instructors here in Ireland.

    He subscribes to the idea the there is absolutely no such thing as talent, and it all comes down to who is doing the most/best practice. I was trying to say to him that practice and instruction are going to be the major factors in ability, but that there are so many factors to success you just can't account for, and talent must be in there somewhere. He was having none of it.
    There are some scripts you have to believe to make training more effective.

    I will argue that it is just a matter of time before I catch my coach out.
    Whitsunday Martial Arts Airlie Beach North Queensland.
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  6. XXIV is offline
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    Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn

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    Posted On:
    3/04/2014 3:36am

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    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    To be fair in the art world we often scoff at the idea of talent as well.

    Art doesn't require a huge physical component like martial arts, but there factors that can be considered to make up talent. Nothing mystical there - it can come down to just the way information is processed to the individual, their overall attention span, fine motor skills etc. For a lot of folks, it's just a matter of never stopping their exploration and having a thirst to know and explore more.

    As with everything art or athletic - talent doesn't mean **** without blood, sweat, tears and consistency. People say I'm a 'talented' artist, but I wouldn't really be so damn talented these days without hard work. I just let my innate curiosity of the world blossom.

    It's 3:30 AM and I should be sleeping but I'm writing flower tangents on Bullshido. Kill me.
  7. ghost55 is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/04/2014 3:52am


     Style: Muay Thai/Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Talent is definitely a factor. I am not a naturally athletic person. At all. I started MT around the same time I joined Bullshido, and you know what? I am still having problems executing the basic techniques. I still have problems with range and timing. I have a lot of days where I wonder if I am just not meant to be doing this. I keep at it though. All this means is that I have to work harder than everyone else if I want to be good.
  8. BKR is online now
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    3/04/2014 11:30am

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost55 View Post
    Talent is definitely a factor. I am not a naturally athletic person. At all. I started MT around the same time I joined Bullshido, and you know what? I am still having problems executing the basic techniques. I still have problems with range and timing. I have a lot of days where I wonder if I am just not meant to be doing this. I keep at it though. All this means is that I have to work harder than everyone else if I want to be good.
    What I see a lot of is the expectation that martial arts training is somehow different than other types of activities. Kids thinking they should be able to hang with black belts in randori after a year or two of Judo (sometimes even less), for example. Or becoming some sort of invincible steet fighter after a few months of X-kai super-fu training with Master Hooey. Heck, I've got a 14 year old in my class who would probably fantasizes about breaking my neck in randori. At that age his ego is so delicately huge he can't understand how I can throw him.

    Everybody wants to be "good" at something, to feel successful. Me too, LOL !

    The deal is, the definition of success sucks for most folks. Progress is success, and that is one of the most important things I try to teach now, it's the relative progress that matters most. Relative to yourself, first, and then to others as a gauge of where you fit in to the population.

    Even in terms of competitions, a student can make good progress and not win a single match. I should know, that's how my judo competition career started. Getting my ass kicked, throwing a guy by surprise every now and then, but basically getting my ass kicked for several months. But I was getting better and better, and finally started catching up with my peers (most of whom had been doing judo since they were little kids).

    In any case, it's how you look at what you do in terms of progress. If you, or anybody else, keeps training with a competent coach, you'll get better. You may never win the secret hidden to the death Kumite in Macao, but you might get better than you were.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  9. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    3/04/2014 12:17pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by XXIV View Post
    I just let my innate curiosity of the world blossom.
  10. Devil is online now
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    His heart was visible, and the dismal sack that maketh excrement of what is eaten.

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    Posted On:
    3/04/2014 12:36pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ghost55 View Post
    Talent is definitely a factor. I am not a naturally athletic person. At all. I started MT around the same time I joined Bullshido, and you know what? I am still having problems executing the basic techniques. I still have problems with range and timing. I have a lot of days where I wonder if I am just not meant to be doing this. I keep at it though. All this means is that I have to work harder than everyone else if I want to be good.
    You're a noob. You're supposed to suck.
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