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  1. ChenPengFi is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/03/2014 4:13pm

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     Style: Hung Gar, Choy Lay Fut

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CrackFox View Post
    Today in work I got a flash back to a minor argument I had with one of the leading BJJ instructors here in Ireland.

    He subscribes to the idea the there is absolutely no such thing as talent, and it all comes down to who is doing the most/best practice. I was trying to say to him that practice and instruction are going to be the major factors in ability, but that there are so many factors to success you just can't account for, and talent must be in there somewhere. He was having none of it.

    He must've just finished reading Outliers.

    A couple of hours in a big city's NICU might be enlightening for anyone who thinks that way.
  2. 1point2 is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/03/2014 5:12pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    Do some people excel and learn certain skills faster? Certainly. However I do believe that anyone that is physically capable can learn any skill. They can do so to a competitive level if they so wish. They may have to put in more hours than the guy with talent but they can do it. They even have to use alternative methods of learning to do it.
    This is so full of weasel words that you manage to say nothing. Define "physically capable". Define "competitive level". Define "more hours".

    It's incontrovertible that some people have more talent than others. Some people are prodigies and can put in less effort--much, much less--to attain similar results in some given field. I'm enormously and frequently in favor of teaching people (especially kids) the value of effort, of overcoming a lack of talent, all that jazz. But it doesn't help anyone to pretend that we can all be BJ Penn. Talent exists.

    Furthermore, natural athletes are joined in their superiority, I've recently noticed, by totally normal people who were simply given rich and thorough exposure to athletics at a young age. People who did judo since they were five, or who did power or Olympic lifting since they were fourteen, are given a huge step up even if they don't follow it very far and get distracted for a decade.
  3. CrackFox is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/03/2014 5:22pm

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     Style: Judo, BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChenPengFi View Post
    He must've just finished reading Outliers.
    Yes, he cited it specifically.
  4. ChenPengFi is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/03/2014 5:33pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2 View Post

    Furthermore, natural athletes are joined in their superiority, I've recently noticed, by totally normal people who were simply given rich and thorough exposure to athletics at a young age. People who did judo since they were five, or who did power or Olympic lifting since they were fourteen, are given a huge step up even if they don't follow it very far and get distracted for a decade.

    This is huge too, my nephew is 9 and has been doing Judo, Wrestling and BJJ at good schools for 5 years already.
    He's also big for his age and eats like a horse.

    He should be kicking my ass in no time!
  5. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/03/2014 6:15pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2 View Post
    Define "physically capable".
    phys·i·cal [fiz-i-kuhl]
    adjective
    1. of or pertaining to the body: physical exercise.

    ca·pa·ble [key-puh-buhl]
    adjective
    1.
    having power and ability; efficient; competent: a capable instructor.

    Now all you have to do is put them together.

    or if you can't
    The body has to have the power or ability.

    Define "more hours".

    more [mawr, mohr]
    adjective compar. of much or many with most as superl.
    1.
    in greater quantity, amount, measure, degree, or number: I need more money.
    2.
    additional or further: Do you need more time? More discussion seems pointless.


    hour [ouuhr, ou-er]
    noun
    1.
    a period of time equal to one twenty-fourth of a mean solar or civil day and equivalent to 60 minutes: He slept for an hour.
    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2 View Post
    It's incontrovertible that some people have more talent than others. Some people are prodigies and can put in less effort--much, much less--to attain similar results in some given field.
    Do some people excel and learn certain skills faster? Certainly.


    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2 View Post
    But it doesn't help anyone to pretend that we can all be BJ Penn.
    BJ Penn can and has been defeated and not necessarily by people more "Talented".

    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2 View Post
    Furthermore, natural athletes are joined in their superiority, I've recently noticed, by totally normal people who were simply given rich and thorough exposure to athletics at a young age. People who did judo since they were five, or who did power or Olympic lifting since they were fourteen, are given a huge step up even if they don't follow it very far and get distracted for a decade.
    So people who start younger are more talented or have spent more time working on something? Also maybe the develop talent by working on things when their bodies and mind are the most adaptable.
  6. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    3/03/2014 6:43pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrackFox View Post
    Today in work I got a flash back to a minor argument I had with one of the leading BJJ instructors here in Ireland.

    He subscribes to the idea the there is absolutely no such thing as talent, and it all comes down to who is doing the most/best practice. I was trying to say to him that practice and instruction are going to be the major factors in ability, but that there are so many factors to success you just can't account for, and talent must be in there somewhere. He was having none of it.
    Well, he's wrong. There is a range of ability in everyone walking this earth, be it academic or physical.

    If one considers people who start out with roughly the same abilities, I can buy the "moar/better practice" thing. But for sure there are folks out there who can excel at physical stuff over others.

    There are physiological reasons that some people are better at sprinting than running marathons, have more explosive strength, etc.

    This is not to say that a "physical genius" who doesn't train can't be bettered by a guy who does train correctly and a lot with good instruction. I've known plenty of physically talented people who never put the effort in to be the best.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  7. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/03/2014 6:49pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrackFox View Post
    Yes, he cited it specifically.

    It's a great selling point for a commercial dojo...you don't need talent, just a 10 year contract paid in advance to train here !

    Seriously, I've put in my 10,000 hours a long time ago, and no way would I ever have been a top level judo competitor...got the heart, had good coaching, but simply did not have the physical capability to hang with the 60/40 plus white muscle fiber guys. I am an anecdote of 1, but I've seen it again and again.

    Hard work is important without a doubt. Talent does exist and makes a difference...
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  8. CrackFox is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/03/2014 6:56pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Well, he's wrong.
    I agree with you 100% here but...

    The guy has a very good record of training people to be good at what they do. Part of what he teaches is technique, but another part is that he gets people really believing that if they put in the work, they will see the progress. He does this to the extent that he tells them to block people on facebook if they are constantly posting negative stuff. The mental aspect is important.

    I think most people do use "talent" as an excuse as to why they didn't achieve what wanted. While I still believe in talent, I actually think it makes better sense to pretend that it doesn't - at least while I'm training. It's not like it's a variable I can control anyway.
  9. CrackFox is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/03/2014 7:05pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    It's a great selling point for a commercial dojo...you don't need talent, just a 10 year contract paid in advance to train here !
    Again, yes I know this.

    Seriously, I've put in my 10,000 hours a long time ago, and no way would I ever have been a top level judo competitor...
    I know it's not the same, but I've spent the last 5 years just trying to stop people grabbing the back of my collar. I've tried really hard, I've got scars and all that, but I'm still letting them do exactly the same stuff as ever. I'm probably never going to learn, but I do enjoy the training on most days, so I don't see the point in acknowledging that I might not be as talented as those guys who have leap-frogged me in training.

    I'd much rather just work on my daiashi to tai otoshi so I can plant them on their backs, and remind them where they came from.
  10. Devil is online now
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    His heart was visible, and the dismal sack that maketh excrement of what is eaten.

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    Posted On:
    3/03/2014 7:24pm

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    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    These are just some musings according to me, so don't get all pissy because I'm not giving sources or it conflicts with some book you read. Just some personal observations here.

    For a long time I've been hugely interested in the subject of how people become great at things. All kinds of things. It just happens to fascinate me.

    One of the biggest factors that I've noticed is how intensely people throw themselves into something early on in their pursuit of an activity. I've noticed that people who become great at stuff usually stand out quickly. It seems much less common for people to toil at something for years and years and finally reach a level of greatness. It doesn't take that long to learn stuff if you're studying properly and with intensity.

    One area where this really jumped out at me was with guitarists. When I was learning to play guitar I was curious about training methods different players used and how they got so good. A lot of them just threw themselves into it and became better in a short period of time than most people become in a lifetime of playing. Eddie Van Halen basically just lived in his bedroom learning to play and could play all of Clapton's stuff note for note within like two years, if I remember correctly. Slash had only been playing guitar for around 5 or 6 years when he wrote and played all the stuff on Appetite for Destruction. There's a long list of guitarists with stories like that.

    Anyway, I'm not sure how all that ties in with natural talent, but it's just something I've noticed and it's semi-related. So, whatever bitches.
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