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  1. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/28/2014 6:52pm

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CapnMunchh View Post
    This doesn't really go to the merits of the art, but its also worth keeping in mind that MA is not just for the young and strong. On behalf of us MArtists in the "Executive Division" I will say that a non-competitive art like Aikido is more easily practiced by older people, who also derive some benefit from it. Its not much for real fighting, but its a lot better than geriatric tai chi.
    If it where not for a couple of gentlemen I have had the pleasure to train with I would have fully agreed with you on this point.
    One being a man I respect so much he was a white belt in my BJJ school who started BJJ in his late 60s. Of course his advanced age was a consideration when rolling with him.
    and another old guy in his 70s came hobbling in. The guy tossed most of us around like a rag doll. Talked to him and he didn't even start Judo till his mid 40s.
    Its not just these two but these two stand out the most for me and always will encourage me to keep going no matter how many set backs I hit.
    Also you may want to check this out.
    http://www.royharris-bjjover40.com/
  2. CapnMunchh is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/28/2014 7:35pm

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     Style: TangSooDo/Yubiwaza

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    One being a man I respect so much he was a white belt in my BJJ school who started BJJ in his late 60s. Of course his advanced age was a consideration when rolling with him.
    He was fortunate that students in your school gave him that consideration. My hair turned gray in my 30's, so in my 40's I looked older than I really was. When I rolled with younger guys, some would try to out muscle me, others would take it easy on me to the point where I was threatening to put them in submission, then they'd suddenly panic or get offended. There was one student who resented me so much because I'd managed to put him in a couple of submissions that I had to stop training with him because he was taking it too personal (he took that personal too). This is tho I lost more matches than I won against these young guys.

    In that Roy Harris article he also talks about how as time went on, conditioning became more emphasized over technique in the world of BJJ, which tends to discourage the older students.

    Its a real problem for the older MArtist that the pool of similar-aged students shrinks as he gets older, but training with younger people also poses problems. I've been fortunate to finally find a school where I can spar with a group of guys about my own age.
  3. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/28/2014 7:43pm

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CapnMunchh View Post
    He was fortunate that students in your school gave him that consideration. My hair turned gray in my 30's, so in my 40's I looked older than I really was. When I rolled with younger guys, some would try to out muscle me, others would take it easy on me to the point where I was threatening to put them in submission, then they'd suddenly panic or get offended. There was one student who resented me so much because I'd managed to put him in a couple of submissions that I had to stop training with him because he was taking it too personal (he took that personal too). This is tho I lost more matches than I won against these young guys.

    In that Roy Harris article he also talks about how as time went on, conditioning became more emphasized over technique in the world of BJJ, which tends to discourage the older students.

    Its a real problem for the older MArtist that the pool of similar-aged students shrinks as he gets older, but training with younger people also poses problems. I've been fortunate to finally find a school where I can spar with a group of guys about my own age.
    I will admit there are some other things going on here. One San Diego county has a high density of BJJ schools. At one point I counted 70 in the city alone and that was a few years ago. So finding a school that is the right "fit" is easier. We also have some older schools around here. People where doing BJJ here before it blew up so we have plenty of older guys. Virtually every school out here is run by a black belt or two and they also tend to be on the older end of the spectrum.
    With the 70 year old the general rule was he typically rolled with blue belt and up types and a few special white belts that where not going to try to muscle him.
    That being said the guy had that old man strength thing going for him.
  4. CapnMunchh is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/28/2014 8:26pm

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     Style: TangSooDo/Yubiwaza

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ghost55 View Post
    During the five or so months that I trained Aikido, there were a lot of things about it that I could not stand. The techniques felt ineffective, and the sensei got really passive aggressive or straight up angry when I asked about application or resisted techniques at all during practice. That being said, every single black belt and brown belt at the Dojo was at least in decent shape. Come to think of it, there was only one fatty that showed up regularly, and that was a woman who came to the kids class with her son. And she was a white belt.
    They had a crummy sensei, but at least they got a workout. Aikido was good for that.
  5. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/28/2014 8:37pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by CapnMunchh View Post
    They had a crummy sensei, but at least they got a workout. Aikido was good for that.
    That is why I typically don't actually make fun of it. As I say often times anything that gets people up off the coach then great. Lets face it most of us simply do not need to know how to kill someone with our pinky but we can all use exercise.

    I still contend its better to do BJJ or Judo but **** if your not going to do one of those things Aikido is better than nothing.
  6. ghost55 is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/28/2014 11:20pm


     Style: Muay Thai/Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CapnMunchh View Post
    They had a crummy sensei, but at least they got a workout. Aikido was good for that.
    The strangest bit was the fact that it was actually a rather shitty workout. I was really out of shape when I started (and finished) with aikido, and I hardly ever broke a sweat. the people that went there just seemed to make an effort to stay in shape outside of the dojo.
  7. Ignorami is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/01/2014 4:16am


     Style: Aikido / FMA / Krotty

    6
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The one thing Judo never seemed to have an effective defence against was self-decrepitation. Judo leaves a trail of knackered knees, shitty shoulders, and fucked fingers. It's not that Judo is hard to practice later in life, its that life is hard to practice later in Judo.

    It's something that BJJ seems to have learned from. I had the good luck to train BJJ for a while recently (until scheduling bum-burgled it) and, outside of competition at least, it seemed much less likely to wreck it's participants.

    BJJ seems to offer everything that Aikido promised me when I started it many many years ago. It just seems much better suited to deliver it.

    As to what Aikido offers these days, I think it's very different. The Aikido community just needs to acknowledge that I guess. In particular, I think this responsibility lies more with the students. A majority of the teachers I know have (sadly?) already decided that it's largely non-martial. Having less experience however, it's students too often think they are learning the d34dly, despite the lack of (for want of a better word) physicality.

    A problem for Aikido, and other arts with LARPY leanings, is that the non-combative elements are self perpetuating. Its starts out with hard people working hard at hard techniques, but espousing a non-combative philosophy.
    Gradually that approach attracts people without a combative mindset. These are soft people working hard, who make the hard techniques soft.

    Fast forward a bit, and your art is attracting soft lazy people, who wreck your art.

    Look at a cardio-kickboxing class as another example. It's even got cardio in the name, but chances are they are all working half as hard at even that element, as competitive kick boxers.


    When life gives you lemons... BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!

    "what's the best thing about aikido then?"
    "To be defeated by your enemies, to be driven by them from the field of battle, and to hear the lamentations of your women." ermghoti
  8. Ming Loyalist is offline
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    solves problems with violence

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    Posted On:
    3/01/2014 12:57pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo, Hung Family Boxing

    3
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    I would contend that Homicidal skinhead psychopath would benefit more from having their ego smashed hard against the mat vs say man dancing.
    training in a good, multicultural, hard sparring school *would* be good for them (i had a student like this once) but in the end it's not really fair to the other students to have those kind of people in class.
    "Face punches are an essential character building part of a martial art. You don't truly love your children unless you allow them to get punched in the face." - chi-conspiricy
    "When I was a little boy, I had a sailor suit, but it didn't mean I was in the Navy." - Mtripp on the subject of a 5 year old karate black belt
    "Without actual qualifications to be a Zen teacher, your instructor is just another roundeye raping Asian culture for a buck." - Errant108
    "Seriously, who gives a **** what you or Errant think? You're Asian males, everyone just ignores you, unless you're in a krotty movie." - new2bjj
  9. CapnMunchh is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/02/2014 4:21pm

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     Style: TangSooDo/Yubiwaza

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ignorami View Post
    As to what Aikido offers these days, I think it's very different. The Aikido community just needs to acknowledge that I guess. In particular, I think this responsibility lies more with the students. A majority of the teachers I know have (sadly?) already decided that it's largely non-martial. Having less experience however, it's students too often think they are learning the d34dly, despite the lack of (for want of a better word) physicality.
    Teachers have to be honest about what they are teaching. IMO many Aikido teachers are well aware that what they are teaching is not effective self-defense, but don't go much out of their way to make that clear. They know that it is precisely the suggestion of engaging in real combat that draws their students -- timid and/or physically unfit people who want to become martial arts experts without ever actually fighting anyone or risking injury. After all, you can't LARP being a MA Sensei without people to LARP being your MA students.
  10. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    3/03/2014 12:00pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

    3
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Regarding judo being hard on the body...

    It's more that the way judo is practiced is hard on the body. Being that it is seen mostly as a competitive sport these days, people train very hard, because nobody likes to lose. The fact that one CAN practice judo full speed in relative safety means that people (especially young people) tend to go as hard as they can, whether it's appropriate or not.

    All my (serious) injuries in Judo over the last 32 years came from competition training, mostly randori. One came from a very skilled and high ranked judoka, and I was told years later it wasn't an accident. The other came from one of my own students, about 3 years ago, while competing in a regional shiai in the same weight division with him and one of my other senior (ikkyu both of them) students. Before that, I'd NEVER bee seriously injured in a shiai.

    So, judo is as rough as you make it. Personally, I think that the super hard randori is over-rated as a training tool, although it IS necessary. For sure, noobs tend to get introduced to it and more "normal" randori in general way too soon, and usually without sufficient training to be safe. This is a problem with the sensei/coach, not the students.

    My sensei/coach and I both were heavy duty competitors...he was -95 kg, I was -65 kg. We trained very, very hard together, so hard that my Dad (I was a teenager) watched once, and had to leave the dojo (he told me that later).

    In any case, you can learn effective judo without killing yourself or getting seriously injured.

    But it's so much damned fun to go balls to the wall...
    Falling for Judo since 1980
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