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  1. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/28/2014 3:40pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by CapnMunchh View Post
    Sure, I'm speculating about what Tohei could have done. But what I think you're suggesting is that if it Tohei used Bjj, judo, MT, whatever, there'd be more certainty about what would have happened here -- it'd be more credible to say that Tohei could have hurt him.

    I don't think so. Judo is more practical a MA for real combat as a general proposition. I'd be more comfortable with it in a fight, thinking my overall chances are better. But there's still no more certainty in the proposition that, in a particular match, the Judoka will prevail than in the proposition that, in a particular match, the Aikidoka will prevail.
    I would say their is a great deal more certainty, this I know from training in an alive manner. This I know from getting my ass kicked over and over again. This I know from having my ego brutalized.

    I know what a judoka with a lifetime of training can do. I know what happens when a young in shape and aggressive man goes up against that. Been there done that.

    Even though I suck at both BJJ and Judo I know what happens when a new guy shows up. I know how much of an ass kicking even I can give. Let alone the guy who has been doing it for years.

    I don't have to guess cause I have witnessed it first hand over and over again.
  2. 1point2 is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/28/2014 3:43pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2 View Post
    And this was the best Tohei could do? Come on.
    I had another point to make. It follows my statement above.

    What would judo's version of Tohei look like against Fat Untrained Cameraman? Well, depends who your version of Tohei is. I bet--and indeed it is in this case mere conjecture--that Mifune would have tossed the sod and essentially done the breakfall for him. But who else could judo's Tohei be?

    Ronda Rousey? Kayla Harrison? What do you think that would look like? My money is on "instant ippon throw", possibly followed by an ippon armbar.

    Teddy Riner? OK, he's bigger than the guy, but still, we *know* what happened:



    Judo's luminaries against "fat, older cameraman trying to jostle the guy in pajamas" would make the match look entirely, completely, radically different. I am willing to argue this point.
  3. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/28/2014 3:49pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2 View Post
    Mifune
  4. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/28/2014 3:56pm

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    of course a lot of that can do with the fact that the old men that I did Judo with tended to be quite a bit like this old guy

  5. BJMills is online now

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    Posted On:
    2/28/2014 3:56pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by CapnMunchh View Post
    Sure, I'm speculating about what Tohei could have done. But what I think you're suggesting is that if it Tohei used Bjj, judo, MT, whatever, there'd be more certainty about what would have happened here -- it'd be more credible to say that Tohei could have hurt him.

    I don't think so. Judo is more practical a MA for real combat as a general proposition. I'd be more comfortable with it in a fight, thinking my overall chances are better. But there's still no more certainty in the proposition that, in a particular match, the Judoka will prevail than in the proposition that, in a particular match, the Aikidoka will prevail. Because the outcome depends a lot on, among other things, the abilities of the fighters in their own arts and their personal qualities as fighters, and not just on the style they studied.

    When I say I think Tohei could have kicked his ass, I'm not saying that because Aikido is so unbeatable, but because Tohei was not just some mediocre MArtist. He was Koichi Tohei, chief instructor at the Hombu Dojo, going up against an overweight ,mediocre fighter who likely had no idea what sorts of technique Tohei was capable of.

    Edit: I really think that discussions of MA v. MA are interesting and worthwhile only up to a point, because the individual qualities of the fighters in a particular matchup are at least as important as what they trained in.
    What I am saying is that an average judoka would handle the fat guy far more effectively than Tohei who was supposedly the best of the best in aikido.

    We've seen what high level judoka can do, or BJJ players, or MT kick boxers, or kykoshinkai fighters. Not even best of the best but just solid competitors.

    What Tohei was pulling off certainly didn't look like the kind of magic throwing you regularly see in aikido. It looked kind of like sloppy judo, with no real control the the opponent once he hit the ground.

    You can find thousands of videos of judo or BJJ players performing far more effectively against trained opponents.

    So choosing to believe he would not have faired better using judo or BJJ had he spent an equivalent amount of time studying them is like choosing to believe the sun rotates around the earth. It's just willful ignorance by way of ignoring all of the available evidence.
  6. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/28/2014 3:57pm

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  7. CapnMunchh is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/28/2014 3:58pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2 View Post
    And this was the best Tohei could do? Come on.

    As a cultural practice, Aikido doesn't produce fighters and it doesn't produce athletes. It doesn't produce people who know what to do when someone doesn't comply. It doesn't produce people who are strong, agile, and possessing good posture. They might get those skills and athletic attributes elsewhere, but...why?

    Judo produces athletes. It makes them more likely to be strong, agile, and of good posture. These things are taught and valued. (Judo produces non-striking "fighters", really grapplers, as well, but that's less important to this point.)

    This comparison is not spitballing. We do not have to pretend we don't know what 9 out of 10 judoka look like compared to 9 out of 10 aikidoka:


    And before you claim selection bias (which aikido has a lot of), I would say that the comparison holds for the change in practitioners as well. We do not have to pretend we don't know what judo makes out of a person, whatever their abilities when they start, 9 times out of 10. If they're a weak ponytailed dreamer they're going to get tougher in judo and more gullible in aikido. If they're an athlete they're going to get better throws from judo and...well, better wristlocks and ukemi from aikido.

    Style versus style comparisons do not become moot just because individual practitioners or dojos are outliers.
    No, the point made in the article quoted above was that Tohei was supposedly picked for this demo precisely because he wouldnt try to do better and hurt the foreign journalist.

    You're right. Modern-day Aikido doesnt produce fighters or athletes like Judo does (tho I'd disagree that Aikido training does not improve fitness and posture at all). Aside from the fact that the training is not what it used to be pre WWII, Judo and other competitive MAs draw a younger, fitter crowd than Aikido; a student base that starts out more comfortable with hard physical work (so yes, I am claiming selection bias). But hey, I've already agreed (along with my Teacher) that, for fighting, Aikido is generally not the best choice.

    I never said that style v. style comparisons are moot, only that they are useful only up to a point -- the point when you are matching two actual fighters, and then the style v. style issue becomes less significant.

    No doubt if you're a weak pony-tailed dreamer you'd benefit more from Judo, but if you're a homicidal skinhead psychopath, learning to harmonize your Ki wouldnt be a bad idea. ;^)
    A nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its laws made by cowards and its wars fought by fools. ― Thucydides
  8. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/28/2014 3:59pm

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    Old men doing BJJ check that out blue belts and they still rock it

  9. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/28/2014 4:01pm

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    One more just for fun
  10. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/28/2014 4:17pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by CapnMunchh View Post
    but if you're a homicidal skinhead psychopath, learning to harmonize your Ki wouldnt be a bad idea. ;^)
    I would contend that Homicidal skinhead psychopath would benefit more from having their ego smashed hard against the mat vs say man dancing.
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