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  1. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/28/2014 1:54pm

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This thread needs a little vs




    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGCrTHrSZ2c

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrAUU_Ul-9o
  2. BJMills is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/28/2014 2:00pm


     Style: Muay Thai/Wrestling

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    Quote Originally Posted by CapnMunchh View Post
    In the article quoted just above by DCS, it was said that Tohei was chosen for this video specifically because he had the self control not to hurt the foreigner. I'm not touting Aikido, but I believe someone like Tohei probably could have hurt that guy one way or another if he had wanted to.
    I believe the article said something along the lines on not using aikido's more deadly techniques. Which is just an early version of the kind of inane 'too deadly' bullshit people still use.

    Come on dude, I assume you have two working eyes. At no point in that video was he even close to hurting the fat guy. The fat untrained guy. Who was just trying to takle him, not throwing haymakers.

    Look, I've got no problem with magic pants, but don't pretend they're really magic.
  3. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/28/2014 2:01pm

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     Style: BJJ

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  4. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/28/2014 2:07pm

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     Style: BJJ

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    Just in case you missed it in my other post

    According to this guy here

    Aikido is practically ninjitsu but in a white gi.

  5. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    2/28/2014 2:12pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    That was a seriously athletic/gymnastic guy...cool stuff, but obviously not for everybody.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  6. CapnMunchh is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/28/2014 2:32pm

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     Style: TangSooDo/Yubiwaza

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    Quote Originally Posted by BJMills View Post
    I believe the article said something along the lines on not using aikido's more deadly techniques. Which is just an early version of the kind of inane 'too deadly' bullshit people still use.

    Come on dude, I assume you have two working eyes. At no point in that video was he even close to hurting the fat guy. The fat untrained guy. Who was just trying to takle him, not throwing haymakers.

    Look, I've got no problem with magic pants, but don't pretend they're really magic.
    Yeah, the "too deadly" stuff is bullshit, but you can't hold Tohei responsible for what the narrator of this commercial program says or is told to say.

    No, Tohei didnt come close to hurting the fat guy. To me, its clear that he wasn't trying to. Actually, neither of them was really trying to hurt the other; but I'd say the fat guy was making a credible effort to grab Tohei, and Tohei had little trouble fending him off.

    All I'm saying is that if it had been a real scrap, I'd have put my money on a fighter with a lifetime of dedication to training (he started judo as a kid), even if it is only Aikido, over someone who might be physically larger, but who has had little or no training at all.
  7. goodlun is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/28/2014 2:41pm

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     Style: BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by CapnMunchh View Post
    I'd have put my money on a fighter with a lifetime of dedication to training (he started judo as a kid), even if it is only Aikido, over someone who might be physically larger, but who has had little or no training at all.
    Here is the thing though I can find videos of what you speculate all over the place of martial arts that train in an alive manner. While here your left speculating. Its sort of up in the air. We know for instance BJJ does work against a bigger stronger opponent hell it works against a bigger stronger opponent with training as long as that training isn't grappling related. The same can be said for Judo.
  8. CapnMunchh is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/28/2014 3:17pm

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     Style: TangSooDo/Yubiwaza

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    Quote Originally Posted by goodlun View Post
    Here is the thing though I can find videos of what you speculate all over the place of martial arts that train in an alive manner. While here your left speculating. Its sort of up in the air. We know for instance BJJ does work against a bigger stronger opponent hell it works against a bigger stronger opponent with training as long as that training isn't grappling related. The same can be said for Judo.
    Sure, I'm speculating about what Tohei could have done. But what I think you're suggesting is that if it Tohei used Bjj, judo, MT, whatever, there'd be more certainty about what would have happened here -- it'd be more credible to say that Tohei could have hurt him.

    I don't think so. Judo is more practical a MA for real combat as a general proposition. I'd be more comfortable with it in a fight, thinking my overall chances are better. But there's still no more certainty in the proposition that, in a particular match, the Judoka will prevail than in the proposition that, in a particular match, the Aikidoka will prevail. Because the outcome depends a lot on, among other things, the abilities of the fighters in their own arts and their personal qualities as fighters, and not just on the style they studied.

    When I say I think Tohei could have kicked his ass, I'm not saying that because Aikido is so unbeatable, but because Tohei was not just some mediocre MArtist. He was Koichi Tohei, chief instructor at the Hombu Dojo, going up against an overweight ,mediocre fighter who likely had no idea what sorts of technique Tohei was capable of.

    Edit: I really think that discussions of MA v. MA are interesting and worthwhile only up to a point, because the individual qualities of the fighters in a particular matchup are at least as important as what they trained in.
    Last edited by CapnMunchh; 2/28/2014 3:27pm at .
  9. 1point2 is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/28/2014 3:29pm

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     Style: 剛 and 柔

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    Quote Originally Posted by CapnMunchh View Post
    When I say I think Tohei could have kicked his ass, I'm not saying that because Aikido is so unbeatable, but because Tohei was not just some mediocre MArtist. He was Koichi Tohei, chief instructor at the Hombu Dojo, going up against an overweight ,mediocre fighter who likely had no idea what sorts of technique Tohei was capable of.
    And this was the best Tohei could do? Come on.

    As a cultural practice, Aikido doesn't produce fighters and it doesn't produce athletes. It doesn't produce people who know what to do when someone doesn't comply. It doesn't produce people who are strong, agile, and possessing good posture. They might get those skills and athletic attributes elsewhere, but...why?

    Judo produces athletes. It makes them more likely to be strong, agile, and of good posture. These things are taught and valued. (Judo produces non-striking "fighters", really grapplers, as well, but that's less important to this point.)

    This comparison is not spitballing. We do not have to pretend we don't know what 9 out of 10 judoka look like compared to 9 out of 10 aikidoka:


    And before you claim selection bias (which aikido has a lot of), I would say that the comparison holds for the change in practitioners as well. We do not have to pretend we don't know what judo makes out of a person, whatever their abilities when they start, 9 times out of 10. If they're a weak ponytailed dreamer they're going to get tougher in judo and more gullible in aikido. If they're an athlete they're going to get better throws from judo and...well, better wristlocks and ukemi from aikido.

    Style versus style comparisons do not become moot just because individual practitioners or dojos are outliers.
  10. Ignorami is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/28/2014 3:30pm


     Style: Aikido / FMA / Krotty

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Kick ass, not kick ass... Irrelevant!

    He betray masta. He dead to me!


    When life gives you lemons... BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!

    "what's the best thing about aikido then?"
    "To be defeated by your enemies, to be driven by them from the field of battle, and to hear the lamentations of your women." ermghoti
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