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  1. DCS is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/27/2014 7:32pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by CapnMunchh View Post
    Mitsugi Saotome Sensei, the head of my old Aikido system, told his students straight out that "Aikido is not for fighting," but it went over many heads anyway.
    Saotome Sensei's views on Aikido are their own and resonated well with American 70's new-ageish counter culture. His success as Aikido teacher has more to do with being in the right place at the right time than with his, undoubtly good, technique.

    Aikido was developed for fighting and was practised by fighters until it targetting the bourgeoise hippie niche was considered more profitable.
  2. CapnMunchh is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/27/2014 7:52pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    But even as a Do, shouldn't aikido be applicable to things besides the tsuki? I mean, as a system that's supposed to approach the extremely varied concept of "principles to live by", shouldn't slightly different martial approaches qualify?
    Yes. For example, entering into an attack and blending is a skill/concept applicable to many situations in life, but the way that its learned in Aikido, i.e., the particular attack and response used to train the skill, doesn't necessarily result in a ready made defense to a knife attack. Its more like you're supposed to internalize the concept and apply it your own way, and the technique used to develop it is like a starting point. The end result are formal techniques that don't look particularly useful, but the concepts that are learned thru them do have usefulness to the already experienced MArtist, who can then incorporate them into his own game.

    That's why Aikido is best for experienced MArtists. For example, I've found the tai sabaki in Aikido useful even if I just use it to get into position to strike. Aikido is where I was introduced to the strategy of "taking the back," which became a focus for me again later in BJJ class, even tho the techniques used to illustrate it there were different.

    Isn't this way for a lot of MAs? Don't they all have some exercises that don't quite make it as technique, but are used to train a skill or quality?

    I hear the sound of myself being sucked into defending Aikido again. Its the burden I bear.
  3. Ignorami is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/28/2014 6:32am


     Style: Aikido / FMA / Krotty

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    Quote Originally Posted by CapnMunchh View Post

    I hear the sound of myself being sucked into defending Aikido again. Its the burden I bear.
    That's the problem with Aikido and aikidoka. Defend defend defend.
    That's only half the fight.

    Attack - like this:

    "Judo is for fat kids! Your UFC is booooolshit! "


    When life gives you lemons... BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!

    "what's the best thing about aikido then?"
    "To be defeated by your enemies, to be driven by them from the field of battle, and to hear the lamentations of your women." ermghoti
  4. CapnMunchh is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/28/2014 10:21am

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    Saotome Sensei's views on Aikido are their own and resonated well with American 70's new-ageish counter culture. His success as Aikido teacher has more to do with being in the right place at the right time than with his, undoubtly good, technique.

    Aikido was developed for fighting and was practised by fighters until it targetting the bourgeoise hippie niche was considered more profitable.
    I agree -- Saotome Sensei's Aikido leans toward the softer side. He is said to be/have been a good fighter tho, and realistic about the use of Aikido. Don't recall if I've posted this before, but for a long time there was a story going around the Md. dojo that he had punched out some guy on the street that was harassing his wife. I didn't witness it, but spoke with people who did. Some students expressed surprise and outrage that "he didn't use Aikido." I thought it was entirely within his character to use his fists instead.
    Last edited by CapnMunchh; 2/28/2014 10:24am at .
  5. CapnMunchh is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/28/2014 10:49am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ignorami View Post
    That's the problem with Aikido and aikidoka. Defend defend defend.
    That's only half the fight.

    Attack - like this:

    "Judo is for fat kids! Your UFC is booooolshit! "
    Aikido Pride. I like it.
    We should all come together and march down Main Street in our magic pants.
  6. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/28/2014 12:20pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by CapnMunchh View Post
    I agree -- Saotome Sensei's Aikido leans toward the softer side. He is said to be/have been a good fighter tho, and realistic about the use of Aikido. Don't recall if I've posted this before, but for a long time there was a story going around the Md. dojo that he had punched out some guy on the street that was harassing his wife. I didn't witness it, but spoke with people who did. Some students expressed surprise and outrage that "he didn't use Aikido." I thought it was entirely within his character to use his fists instead.
    Here he is in 1979...


    And some tanto dori in 1993.



    And finally the standard woo-woo aikido for th e most part...

    Last edited by BKR; 2/28/2014 12:26pm at .
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  7. DCS is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/28/2014 12:34pm

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    As historical curiosity

    Click image for larger version. 

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    At about the same era Tohei was crappling with Hermann, Tadashi Abe wrote a manual where headbutting opponents in clinching/gripfighting range is considered proper Aikido.

    Tadashi Abe was a pioneer of Aikido in Europe, sent by the Aikikai as official representative in France in the 50's. Taught Aikido at Kawaishi's Judo dojo and when returned to Japan in the 60's he got very angry seeing the changes in the art that were made while he was away.

    There are a lot of interesting stories about Abe, including attempting to kill Tohei with a knife for betraying Ueshiba.
  8. CapnMunchh is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/28/2014 1:02pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Here he is in 1979...


    And some tanto dori in 1993.



    And finally the standard woo-woo aikido for th e most part...

    Good videos. In the first, he starts teaching knife defense by using strikes to the face instead of locks or throws. The second video also has some good stuff -- he works with fast multiple stabs/cuts instead of the usual straight line off-balance lunge seen in many crappy dojos. Maybe not up to high level FMA, but better than Aikido as usual.

    The third video is more like the usual, off-balance attacks and levitating ukes. A lot of his students felt that ukemi meant "launch yourself thru the air when Sensei touches you," like it was a sign of respect or something. In fact, he often criticised people for that, and sometimes made his ukes repeat an attack until it was at least halfway convincing. I think to some extent it was his students and their attitude who imposed softer movements on him rather than the other way around, because that's the Aikido they wanted to believe in -- the "non-violent martial art." He was a full-time instructor, no day job, so I don't blame him for having to make a living.
  9. CapnMunchh is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/28/2014 1:18pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    Tadashi Abe wrote a manual where headbutting opponents in clinching/gripfighting range is considered proper Aikido.
    Yeah! that's more like teh re@l Aik!)o. I'd still be training in it if I could find a teacher like that.
  10. W. Rabbit is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/28/2014 1:23pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by CapnMunchh View Post
    I hear the sound of myself being sucked into defending Aikido again. Its the burden I bear.
    I think you can tell the difference between a judo and aikido school by the sounds, too.
    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 2/28/2014 1:31pm at .
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