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  1. ghost55 is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/23/2014 3:45am


     Style: Muay Thai/Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I wondered how out of shape Kevin Rosier was, so i dug up a video of one of his fights from UFC 1. Holy ****. That is not "out of shape." That is a man who is attempting to evolve into a large marine mammal. Like a fucking sperm whale.
  2. Holy Moment is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/23/2014 7:12am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ghost55 View Post
    I wondered how out of shape Kevin Rosier was, so i dug up a video of one of his fights from UFC 1. Holy ****. That is not "out of shape." That is a man who is attempting to evolve into a large marine mammal. Like a fucking sperm whale.
    They say he was in the gym the week of the fight with a pizza and a Heineken. Immediately before his UFC 4 bout that he lost in fourteen seconds, he was spotted eating candy bars in the locker room.

    The promoters expected him to look like this:

  3. Devil is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/23/2014 11:05am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think BJJ would've still fared well with Holy Moment's dream lineup. BJJ is amazingly effective against people who have no clue about it. Changing the lineup of fighters wouldn't have prevented the BJJ element of surprise.

    Karelin would've been an extremely dangerous opponent though - not because he could clearly take anyone else down at will, but because he was famous for hurting people with his slams. It's difficult to work the guard when you're unconscious. But I think the most likely outcome would've been Karelin tapping like everyone else.
  4. Devil is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/23/2014 11:30am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by 3moose1 View Post
    Look what Dan Severn did to Royce...and he wasn't that great of a wrestler...
    I don't think that argument holds water. Severn dominated Royce with wrestling only to end up being submitted. And this was after having a year to try to figure out what Royce was doing.

    Aside from the previously mentioned slamosauruses, what would Karelin have been able to do differently with his wrestling than Severn did? Would he have even more wrestled him?

    With no knowledge of BJJ, Karelin would've probably ended up sticking his head into a guillotine or getting triangled.
  5. W. Rabbit is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/23/2014 12:42pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3moose1 View Post
    Look what Dan Severn did to Royce...and he wasn't that great of a wrestler...
    What, lose?

    To most spectators (including me) watching UFC4 Gracie was in the process of losing for 15m+...how could he not be with the Beast on top for so long? It was inevitable that the Beast would have Royce for lunch...a foregone conclusion. I remember my roommate telling me it was over for the Brazilians, the giant men had finally shown up and would show everyone the "real fighting".

    Quote Originally Posted by Shawarma View Post
    And Royce never really was that great a BJJ player, he just happened to fight a bunch of people who'd never heard of it.
    They'd heard of jujutsu and judo...they should have known what to expect. If nobody expected ground to become a major element, they would never have invited wrestlers.

    Quote Originally Posted by 3moose1 View Post
    Karelin, on the other hand, is a pretty fucking great wrestler. Plus his left testicle weighs more than the entire Gracie Family put together. If he'd been in UFC1, all the kids today would walk around wearing Suplexout beanies and bragging about their training in Russian Wrestling instead of BJJ.
    His inclusion would have made things that much better, and he'd have had a great shot, but I'm not convinced he would simply have crushed all of the competition, for the same reasons Dan Severn couldn't. I was one of those people who expected to see Severn crush Gracie, and when the Beast tapped I was honestly blown away and took up judo (me and a lot of other folks I'll bet).
    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 2/23/2014 12:46pm at .
  6. Holy Moment is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/23/2014 12:43pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    And this was after having a year to try to figure out what Royce was doing.
    He didn't actually have any other kind of training besides wrestling until UFC 5, though. His only preparation for UFC 4 was having Al Snow try to punch him while he worked takedowns and rudimentary submissions (He tried modifying illegal wrestling holds to be effective finishing maneuvers, which actually worked against Marcus Bossett. He also tried to submit Anthony Macias with a half-nelson). Severn had successfully competed in SAMBO before, but he only utilized pure wrestling to win. By UFC 5, he finally had enough training from Mark Tripp under his belt to easily defeat three other grapplers and win the title.

    Rickson grappled with Olympic gold-medalist freestyle wrestler Mark Schultz on several occasions and supposedly took over twenty minutes to tap him out every time. With ground-and-pound involved, an even larger and more accomplished wrestling juggernaut like Karelin may very well have been able to compensate for his deficit in submission skills and wreck shop in the entire tournament.

  7. Devil is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/23/2014 12:54pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Holy Moment View Post
    He didn't actually have any other kind of training besides wrestling until UFC 5, though. His only preparation for UFC 4 was having Al Snow try to punch him while he worked takedowns and rudimentary submissions (He tried modifying illegal wrestling holds to be effective finishing maneuvers, which actually worked against Marcus Bossett. He also tried to submit Anthony Macias with a half-nelson). Severn had successfully competed in SAMBO before, but he only utilized pure wrestling to win. By UFC 5, he finally had enough training from Mark Tripp under his belt to easily defeat three other grapplers and win the title.

    Rickson grappled with Olympic gold-medalist freestyle wrestler Mark Schultz on several occasions and supposedly took over twenty minutes to tap him out every time. With ground-and-pound involved, an even larger and more accomplished wrestling juggernaut like Karelin may very well have been able to compensate for his deficit in submission skills and wreck shop in the entire tournament.


    I wasn't suggesting Severn had been seriously training submissions or even seriously studying Royce to figure out how to beat him. Nevertheless, there's a huge difference between walking into a fight knowing what strategy to expect from your opponent and walking in clueless, which was the case for UFC 1 competitors.

    Like I said, Karelin would've been a dangerous opponent. But he could've easily made a tiny little mistake that would've resulted in a submission. Royce (or Rickson in your lineup) came to the competition prepared to protect himself from ground and pound by bigger, stronger opponents long enough to work a submission. There's no scenario in which they didn't know exactly what to expect from a wrestler. Wrestlers had no way of knowing what to expect from BJJ guys in UFC1. So, advantage BJJ.
  8. Holy Moment is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/23/2014 1:04pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Just to go back and add to my original post, that line-up is only ideal in the sense that the fighters listed were the champions of their respective disciplines in 1993. In terms of creating interest and satisfying viewers, there would've needed to have been a martial arts movie star like Jackie Chan or Jean Claude Van Damme in there somewhere.
  9. Hanniballistic is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/23/2014 1:13pm


     Style: JKD & Mok'bara

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Karelin did technically have an MMA match of course...I say technically, because the word "work" leaps out. It was more Puroseau and has since been acknowledges as such, although at times it looked borderline shoot

    Karelin did gas more than I would have thought actually





    However, in keeping with the spirit of the thread I still wish we had seen one of the originally proposed guys in there Tonga Fifita

    "Who?" you ask....why none other than King Haku

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    From several interviewed wrestlers (courtesy wiki) he was the toughest man ever to lace up boots

    In 1987, Haku had a backstage fight with Jesse Barr (who wrestled in the WWF as Jimmy Jack Funk) which allegedly resulted in Fifita gouging one of Barr's eyeballs out, causing Barr to later wear a glass eye. After this fight, Fifita had a reputation that steered wrestlers away from backstage confrontations. Regarding the rumor, Fifita, in a 2011 interview, stated "I didn't take his eyeballs off. I was ready to, my hands were in there, ready to take his eye off, but then I realized how stupid we were. Here we are brothers on the road together. I told Jim after all these things, and he got fired for it, and all these things here, and I feel bad for him, Jim. It was something that happened at that moment."[11]
    In another incident, Fifita got into an altercation with some men at the Baltimore Airport bar who called wrestling "fake", and during the fight, Fifita bit off the nose of one of the men. Fifita stated, "Yeah. It was in Baltimore Airport. There was a hotel there. We were staying at another hotel - the Marriott or something. There was another hotel there, though. It was hopping at the time. The music was playing and it was packed. It was during the week I believe. Me and Siva Afi went over and there were lots of babyfaces there at the bar. So we went and sat in the other corner away from them. When they were ready to close, we had a few drinks, and on our way out there were five guys just sitting there. Of course, the same thing came out. The 'fake' stuff. 'Hey, are you guys with those guys - wrestlers? The fake wrestlers on TV?' You know. I said, 'Yeah. I'll show you.' And I reached over without thinking - there are four other guys there (laughs) - grabbed his face, and bit his nose off. Then the fight started. Me and Siva kind of cleaned house there and left. I'll never forget it (laughs)."[12]
    Wrestler Perry Saturn, when asked who would win a bar fight between several real-life wrestling tough-guys, said, "Tonga. Nobody else would stand a chance. Not even a question. He could kill everyone without blinking and there is nothing anyone could do about it."[13]
    Jake "The Snake" Roberts may have said it best during one of his shoot interviews: "If I had a gun and was sitting inside a tank with one shell left and Meng is 300 yards away, he's mine, right? Well the first thing I'm going to do is jump out of the tank and shoot myself because I don't want to wound that son of a bitch and have him pissed off at me."[14]
    In a shoot interview Bobby Heenan talked extensively about Meng and referred to him as the toughest man (not just wrestler) he's ever met in his life. The craziest story he shared was in regards to a bar fight where he claimed Meng "took his two fingers on his right hand, his index finger and trigger finger, and he reached into the guy's mouth and he broke off the guy's bottom teeth." Heenan said that if he hadn't been there and seen it himself, he wouldn't believe it. After all the other stories that have been confirmed, it doesn't seem that unbelievable at all. Heenan was also close friends with Andre the Giant and claimed that the only two men in the word that Andre feared were Meng and Harley Race.[14]
    Would have LOVED to have seen him in a legit MMA match!
  10. Holy Moment is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/23/2014 2:26pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Not a bad choice. A few WCW wrestlers like Jerry Flynn and Craig Pittman did cross over into MMA:





    Pittman wrestled Karelin once:

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