Thread: Need a bully near Temecula, CA.
2/10/2014 11:13pm, #11
Permalost is coming with a far better camera than I have, so barring cancellations, we're set.I'm picturing you drooling onto the keyboard as you type, one eye rotating independent of the other as your hands mash the keys. - Sophist
2/10/2014 11:36pm, #12
2/11/2014 2:56pm, #13
Oh how I hope this happens...
2/11/2014 3:24pm, #14
Although, given that Bullshido is a spectator sport, some Ultimate Warrior smack talk is probably warranted.I'm picturing you drooling onto the keyboard as you type, one eye rotating independent of the other as your hands mash the keys. - Sophist
2/11/2014 4:47pm, #15
2/11/2014 4:54pm, #16
2/12/2014 2:27am, #17
It's been three hours. Any news?
2/12/2014 4:00am, #18
We all showed up. I brought my friend who brought his GoPro, but David wasn't keen on filming most of it, so we only got one anticlimactic vid at the end. David seemed uncomfortable about filming it and it kept leading into whole conversations, so we were like whatever, let's train. I sort of smirked at the notion that a guy with over 300 youtube vids suddenly doesn't want to be filmed.
I had actually just planned on filming the event so I'm wearing some jeans and a t shirt, but I signed a waiver so I get on the mat. He starts explaining tai chi and his evasion technique, and I tell him I've done a few years of tai chi. We start to play push hands, and it seems fixed step isn't how he does things since he started moving around, so we basically start doing moving step. I start trying to take him down with upper body throws, and he's clearly done some training like this, but I succeed quite a few times with trips, hip throws, posture break lead-downs and a counter-trip. Since he kept yielding and moving back, a few times I pushed him against the wall to set up a throw. I don't think he ever took me down unless he dragged me down with him, but then it occured to me that he wasn't trying to take me down at all, except for when he stepped his leg behind mine to trip and I countered. So, he wasn't working offensively and this made things much easier for me (plus I'm a lot bigger than him). I disagree with this approach though- part of good defense is being offensive- even defending, I feel one should be constantly trying to offbalance and improve position even if they're not actively countering. Anyway, none of my attacks were an attempt to shove his chest with both hands, which never really made sense to me.
I take a bathroom break and Tenebrous starts playing with him. To David's credit, he seemed to have good cardio- I was kinda tired and he kept going, but it occurs to me that I probably wouldn't be very tired if I passively defended the entire time. Anyway, Tenebrous takes him down quite a few times, using all sorts of nifty stuff. I really wish there was video of this. He did quite a few Japanese doubles, which looked fairly effortless for the most part.
We play some more, then he starts showing technical tai chi stuff. Again, he demonstrates the matador out of the way of a charging guy. He asked if I saw *this*, which was a weapon drawing motion, what I would do. He said that most people would go into a forward chest shove, so they lose their balance and stop thinking about anything else. I demonstrated the weapon-drawing defense I learned from Marc Denny, which are top shelf weapon stuff as far as I'm concerned. In my opinion, forward shoving the guy isn't likely to lead to a takedown, and you have only increased the space between you and the guy with a weapon, which improves his position. Hell, even if the guy falls on his back he can still shoot you, and is in a position where you can do nothing to him. To me it seemed like a stretch to make the two handed chest shove relevant for the streets.
At some point, he's going over the guillotine choke defense with Tenebrous. Tenebrous puts him in a guillotine, and he seems unable to struggle out of it. Tenebrous gives him a little guillotine clinic, I pick up a thing or 2. He also showed me a few turn the wheel options that I liked.
He asks me to push him, and I do, several times, and he goes straight back, not pivoting, so I was kinda confused. I decide maybe I'm supposed to drive forward more instead of just shoving him, so I make contact and start running him back like a football player or something. He said something about how you can just run backwards as fast as someone can run forward, and gives a demo. I run him backwards and crash him into a wall, cause I kinda thought he would do some sort of defense or counter. I really didn't understand what he was trying to explain . I felt kinda bad cause I slammed him pretty good. On a related note, this was also my first time playing around with the concept of push-handsing someone into a wall and pinning them there to set up a hip throw. Worked well, and I'd like to do more of it. At my old kung fu school, they broke stuff up as soon as we hit a wall.
We discuss the video for a while and conclude that David's only claim was that his technique works against a front upper body takedown, which he equated to a 2 handed chest push. I brought up that to a grappler, upper body takedown includes a wide arrange of techniques and approaches, none of which really start as a chest push. So, we conceded that his technique worked against the specific thing he said it did. In my opinion, the defense is kinda lame because it is designed to work against the lowest common denominator technique. Its like when people practice a bunch of static wrist grab techniques- why bother, when only the lamest of attackers will try to push you down or grab your wrist. I would've liked to see him actually fight back against me using tai chi, cause we were playing push hands and as I learned it, its a 2 person drill where both people should be trying to put the other guy on the mat.
My tai chi take on things: good martial arts technique follows the "position before submission" mantra. Its not just a groundfighting or submission grappling thing. In the clinch, I'll try to go for underhooks and posture breaks, because I want a superior position before trying to throw. In FMA, we use triangular footwork so that when you defend, you position yourself for your own counter while moving away from their other weapon. So my push hands is a positional game, David seems more about being relaxed and avoid fighting force on force, so he commented that my tai chi was hard, and I did a lot of grabbing for a tai chi guy. I always go for the inside/underneath position, and he seemed content to just let me get the inside/underneath position. My push hands teacher would say that as soon as your arms are touching, they're fighting for position. I did not get this sense from David, he'd probably say that's using too much force. Footwork wise, he seemed to readily give up lots of space. The way I learned, when someone steps straight back, you take their space and don't give it back. In moving step, you corral the guy to the edge of the ring or platform or whatever.
I film a video of David showing his technique again, and Tenebrous showing when the technique doesn't work. Its late and I'll probably recall more tomorrow. I'll ask my non-MA friend who came with me his take on things. David said he doesn't like chaos in martial arts vids. This is another point we will fundamentally disagree on.
Last edited by Permalost; 2/12/2014 4:20am at .
2/12/2014 4:16am, #19
2/12/2014 6:02am, #20
Permalost has a good by-the-numbers written.
Admittedly, I'm not familiar with all the comments he received on youtube and don't know every word of the videos that riled people. But what we could agree on was essentially that side-stepping or circling, with shoulder switching, would effectively thwart a direct push. Permalost and I explained that we didn't really consider that to be a normal move in a grappler's arsenal. He agreed on that count, stating it was more of a tool to thwart the shoves that you see in brawls, and not technical takedowns.
Most of my setups are off of clinches and wrist ties. I'm not big on shooting, but there were a couple. I am pretty fond of snap downs. David agreed that the technique in the video was not really going to stop those things. Lots of standard fare takedowns were executed relatively easily, with an emphasis on the Japanese double (which googling has just now led me to believe is more commonly called a spear double).
The video we shot explaining what we concluded will likely posted before I get a chance to, I'm about to nap a tiny bit before work here. In it, I don't really execute any specific technique because resistance collapses quickly after I get my initial position. So it's even less exciting than the takedowns we did for an hour or so prior.
After Permalost left, David and I talked about and practiced some takedown defense until our lovely host politely booted us out for closing time. He also expressed interest in learning more grappling, and I hope he does because grappling is awesome and anyone who disagrees can die in a fire. Then we kvetched about far more general topics for a bit. And I'm sure it will disappoint when I say he's an ok guy.
I fully expect lots of bitching from people who wanted a fiery conflagration. And, yes, I love a fiery conflagration as much as the next guy. If anyone wants to complain about how I didn't do it right, then you either should have done it yourself, or you should come down and have a couple rounds of fiery conflagration yourself for the amusement of the forum.
Boring video can go up later. Nap time.I'm picturing you drooling onto the keyboard as you type, one eye rotating independent of the other as your hands mash the keys. - Sophist