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  1. blackmonk is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/05/2014 11:44pm

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     Style: belt and jacket wrestling

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Let's try this on for size, considering your posts about the Mongolian style.

    Your analysis?
    Tsagaanbaatar's gripping style is clearly a borrow from bokh, but in this case, he is using the over/under for a couple of reasons:

    1. Ono is a right-hander. By getting a left under-armpit grip and flaring his elbow out, he is preventing Ono from moving him by way of the lapel and shoulder girdle.

    2. The over-armpit grip on the right prevents Ono from finding a traditional grip. Tsagaanbaatar also clearly dismisses the HCG as a threat several times, and instead goes for Ono's left arm with two hands, thus preventing him from getting a sleeve grip, or turning in that direction.

    A few side notes are that Tsagaanbaatar clearly does not want to play hip-to-hip with Ono. He also takes a low, almost-wrestling sort of stance at times, but still tries to maintain knee-to-shoulder alignment. It is only when this alignment is broken that he gets thrown. This is very characteristic of bokh and belt wrestling.
  2. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    3/07/2014 10:04pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by blackmonk View Post
    Tsagaanbaatar's gripping style is clearly a borrow from bokh, but in this case, he is using the over/under for a couple of reasons:

    1. Ono is a right-hander. By getting a left under-armpit grip and flaring his elbow out, he is preventing Ono from moving him by way of the lapel and shoulder girdle.

    2. The over-armpit grip on the right prevents Ono from finding a traditional grip. Tsagaanbaatar also clearly dismisses the HCG as a threat several times, and instead goes for Ono's left arm with two hands, thus preventing him from getting a sleeve grip, or turning in that direction.

    A few side notes are that Tsagaanbaatar clearly does not want to play hip-to-hip with Ono. He also takes a low, almost-wrestling sort of stance at times, but still tries to maintain knee-to-shoulder alignment. It is only when this alignment is broken that he gets thrown. This is very characteristic of bokh and belt wrestling.
    The videos are not showing up on this library computer for some reason, so I can't review the match. I'll have to try later, dammit !

    Ono has such an incredible sense of opportunity he was still able to catch him, though. I think under a slightly older set of rules Ono would have a much rougher time than he did.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  3. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    3/08/2014 6:12pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by blackmonk View Post
    Tsagaanbaatar's gripping style is clearly a borrow from bokh, but in this case, he is using the over/under for a couple of reasons:

    1. Ono is a right-hander. By getting a left under-armpit grip and flaring his elbow out, he is preventing Ono from moving him by way of the lapel and shoulder girdle.
    I see what you mean, however, Ono moved him around anyway, because his ability to move Tsagaanbaatar is based on more than Ono's ability to get his favored grip. The gripping did shut down Ono's favorite Osoto Gari/Uchi Mata, though, which was what Tsagaanbaatar had to do if he was to have a chance to win the match.

    Quote Originally Posted by blackmonk View Post
    2. The over-armpit grip on the right prevents Ono from finding a traditional grip. Tsagaanbaatar also clearly dismisses the HCG as a threat several times, and instead goes for Ono's left arm with two hands, thus preventing him from getting a sleeve grip, or turning in that direction.
    Not sure he dismissed the HCG, when Ono had it he attacked anyway with ashiwaza. The point was to shut down Ono's main strategy. It worked to a certain degree, but Ono brought a lot more to the match, in terms of his fundamentals and alternative tactics. I think Ono had also been coached on how to deal with Tsagaanbaatar's style and the Mongolians in general, as he never panicked or looked confused and adjusted accordingly.

    Quote Originally Posted by blackmonk View Post
    A few side notes are that Tsagaanbaatar clearly does not want to play hip-to-hip with Ono. He also takes a low, almost-wrestling sort of stance at times, but still tries to maintain knee-to-shoulder alignment. It is only when this alignment is broken that he gets thrown. This is very characteristic of bokh and belt wrestling.
    I agree, he didn't want to go hip to hip. Clearly Tsagaanbaatar is a very skilled grappler in general, familiar with the lower wrestling stances as well as the usual Judo posture and grips. He got caught on the counter to the leg grab (Ono is lucky the refs knew what they saw or he could have lost on that one), then tried a left side attack from a weaker gripping situation and got countered.

    Ono was able to maintain his fundamentals despite Tsagaanbaatar's non-standard approach, because his fundamentals are so damned strong and ingrained, plus he is obviously very well coached.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  4. blackmonk is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/09/2014 7:18pm

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     Style: belt and jacket wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post

    Not sure he dismissed the HCG, when Ono had it he attacked anyway with ashiwaza. The point was to shut down Ono's main strategy. It worked to a certain degree, but Ono brought a lot more to the match, in terms of his fundamentals and alternative tactics. I think Ono had also been coached on how to deal with Tsagaanbaatar's style and the Mongolians in general, as he never panicked or looked confused and adjusted accordingly.
    Well, I say that about the HCG because there were multiple times where he clearly could have intercepted it, but opted to come in low (thus creating the opportunity for it) and establish that bokh grip.

    One of my coaches used to train with Tsagaanbaatar, and knowing that he is one of my favorite judo/sambo players, he asked me at our first practice (insert Israeli accent):

    O: Why you think Tsagaanbaatar compete in so many different weight class? Why he let opponent get grip?

    M: He is strong. Maybe he cuts to -66kg for the bigger events. His wrestling grips counter the traditional grips.

    O: No, you want to know why?

    M: (confused) Sure.

    O: It because he is a real man. He does not give ****. You want to fight me, let's fight. I kill you.

    Point is that he said Tsagaanbaatar is just a fearless animal of a man, and that's why he's competed everywhere from -66kg to -81kg, and is known for just walking straight into his opponent, without intercepting some key grips. Every time I see him fight, I have that in the back of my mind. There's a decent chance that a training partner of mine will have a match against him in a couple of weeks in Moscow. Ouch.
  5. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/11/2014 10:23pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by blackmonk View Post
    Well, I say that about the HCG because there were multiple times where he clearly could have intercepted it, but opted to come in low (thus creating the opportunity for it) and establish that bokh grip.

    One of my coaches used to train with Tsagaanbaatar, and knowing that he is one of my favorite judo/sambo players, he asked me at our first practice (insert Israeli accent):

    O: Why you think Tsagaanbaatar compete in so many different weight class? Why he let opponent get grip?

    M: He is strong. Maybe he cuts to -66kg for the bigger events. His wrestling grips counter the traditional grips.

    O: No, you want to know why?

    M: (confused) Sure.

    O: It because he is a real man. He does not give ****. You want to fight me, let's fight. I kill you.

    Point is that he said Tsagaanbaatar is just a fearless animal of a man, and that's why he's competed everywhere from -66kg to -81kg, and is known for just walking straight into his opponent, without intercepting some key grips. Every time I see him fight, I have that in the back of my mind. There's a decent chance that a training partner of mine will have a match against him in a couple of weeks in Moscow. Ouch.
    LOL, my old coach and I had a similar exchange many years ago over a smaller, older judoka who was competing in the open division at a big tournament. I was "he's insane", he was like, "no, he just likes to fight and isn't scared !".

    I do think he had more of a strategy in mind, that his bokh style gripping would shut down Ono enough to make a difference, which it did, and that he couldn't last long if he tried to beat Ono at his own game.

    That and liking to fight !
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  6. Mr.HoneyBadger is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/25/2014 12:16pm


     Style: Judo/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by blackmonk View Post
    Tsagaanbaatar's gripping style is clearly a borrow from bokh, but in this case, he is using the over/under for a couple of reasons:

    1. Ono is a right-hander. By getting a left under-armpit grip and flaring his elbow out, he is preventing Ono from moving him by way of the lapel and shoulder girdle.

    2. The over-armpit grip on the right prevents Ono from finding a traditional grip. Tsagaanbaatar also clearly dismisses the HCG as a threat several times, and instead goes for Ono's left arm with two hands, thus preventing him from getting a sleeve grip, or turning in that direction.

    A few side notes are that Tsagaanbaatar clearly does not want to play hip-to-hip with Ono. He also takes a low, almost-wrestling sort of stance at times, but still tries to maintain knee-to-shoulder alignment. It is only when this alignment is broken that he gets thrown. This is very characteristic of bokh and belt wrestling.

    I've noticed in a lot of videos of Bokh, the under over grip is seen very often. Do they seek the over under out rather than double under hooks for a specific reason? Are they hunting for it you think, or is it just a common position people end up in by chance?

    I've also noticed that it seems like they just grab either one or both of the "collars" of their opponents jacket, while Tsagaanbaatar makes an effort to grab with an over hook and under hook on their seams/armpits, like you said.

    Are they doing the same thing and I've just never noticed it you think?


    (And a lot of times, in the videos I've seen, when they are just messing around or training, they will start in the over under. Maybe it's a cultural thing? Like "We'll start out neutral". This Mongolian does it during the second match he has. They are just messing around at a local Naadam.)

  7. blackmonk is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/26/2014 2:14pm

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     Style: belt and jacket wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Honestly, I've never really thought about it. I'm sure the uniform dictates some of the choices in grips... presumably in the sense that grabbing onto the uniform (the "tube top" in mongolian wrestling) is a stronger control position than double unders.

    The guy on here that could answer your question with the highest degree of expertise is Aaron Fields. He actually trained in Mongolia with the traditional wrestlers. Search his name on the members' list.
  8. Mr.HoneyBadger is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/26/2014 2:46pm


     Style: Judo/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by blackmonk View Post
    Honestly, I've never really thought about it. I'm sure the uniform dictates some of the choices in grips... presumably in the sense that grabbing onto the uniform (the "tube top" in mongolian wrestling) is a stronger control position than double unders.

    The guy on here that could answer your question with the highest degree of expertise is Aaron Fields. He actually trained in Mongolia with the traditional wrestlers. Search his name on the members' list.
    Yeah that would make sense, because in the over under, when wearing their "tube tops" the over hook still has a pretty good grip on the shoulder.


    Tsagaanbaatar's style reminds me of muay thai guys. He seems to just move right on in to them. He doesn't look like he plays patty cake. Like your coach said, right?: "It because he is a real man. He does not give ****. You want to fight me, let's fight. I kill you."

    (Not saying Tsagaanbaatar isn't skilled. Just that it appears he has a very aggressive style compared to some others)
  9. blackmonk is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/26/2014 4:24pm

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     Style: belt and jacket wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That's exactly the kind of game that my coach wants me to play, because he says I have the physical attributes to do it. Psychologically, however, that just isn't how I operate. It is something that I will have to work myself into.

    Kazakhs usually fight in a similar manner, although the one that I wrestled today in Moscow did not.
  10. Mr.HoneyBadger is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/26/2014 10:39pm


     Style: Judo/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Probably a cultural thing, you know?

    I've been watching a bunch of Bokh videos to see whether they utilize the same gripping seen by georgian chidoaba. I Can't really tell, though. It looks like they do, but Chidoaba seems to be played at a faster pace than Bokh.

    It looks to me like for the georgians it's (roughly): grab both vest sleeves or just one sleeve, look for belt grip/over back grip/bear hug/, throw

    In bokh it appears to be (again, roughly in my newb opinion): Grab both shoulders/one shoulder grip, ankle pick or shoot for a single, double, fireman's, and if you don't go for a more distance oriented technique, then get an over under grip and throw from there.


    (I could be completely wrong about all of this, this is just what it looks like to me)

    Aaron told me that they use over the back grips, belt grips on the little string that ties the jacket on them, arm drags, wrestling tie ups, arm pit/seam grips etc.)
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