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  1. blackmonk is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/20/2014 11:29am

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     Style: belt and jacket wrestling

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    Tempted to make another thread, because I'm afraid some of this will be buried...

    What are your preferred grips overall, and what do you think are the strongest grips?

    For example, I notice that a lot of Russian sambo players tend to prefer traditional judo-style grips overall, which is probably because they are usually judo players. Makes sense. The advantage here, I assume, is that traditional gripping creates a sort of frame in and of itself. Lots of makikomi, also.

    I notice that a lot of players from the former USSR on the western side (eastern europe) tend to like over-the-back grips, as this resembles some of the grips common in their indigenous wrestling styles.

    There is a Japanese sambo coach that advocates pocket grips, topside sleeve grips, and pistol grips almost exclusively, as he feels these are the strongest available.

    There are some examples. I really, really like 2-on-1 grips, because I am able to move my opponent without a lot of hip commitment, and my throw attempts are much harder to counter. It is also a good methodology against stronger and larger opponents. I also like over-the-back and makikomi grips, because it is almost inherent that their posture is broken at that point.

    What are your go-tos, and why?
  2. BKR is online now
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    2/26/2014 1:25pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackmonk View Post
    When I couldn't get the right-handed grip off my left lapel today, I turned it into a tai otoshi. Worked ok. The two-hands-on-one-wrist/forearm kinda tai o.

    We did 4-minute rounds of just hard grip-breaking for about 30 minutes, and then another 30 minutes of constant pulling/kuzushi in 2-minute rounds. Good for conditioning. I'm going back to Moscow to get my ass kicked at the Kharlampiev Cup in a few weeks, so my biggest chance of lasting an entire match is to push the pace, and give them hell with grips and kuzushi.

    One of the guys that I competed with last time won his first match by just pacing the **** out of the other guy. Never stopped moving.
    Your Tai Otoshi is a good one as well for that situation as well. At the least you attack out of the grip, which under judo rules is important to keep attacking.

    Conditioning is huge...I won most of my matches over the years simply by not stopping to sit still. That was to make up for my lack of skill versus most of my opponents in the early days of competing. I'd either wear the guy down and catch him, or my blitzkrieg style would overwhelm them quickly, as it was an unusual style of Judo at the time, in my neck of the woods in any case (Texas back then).

    Good luck in Moscow, get some video if you can I'd live to see it !
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  3. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/26/2014 1:31pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackmonk View Post
    Also playing around with the sort of "wrestling" grips and stance that Tsagaanbaatar uses, although that is supposedly not good judo, according to many coaches.

    He makes it work at extremely high levels, so there must be something to it. My favorite it when he gets a shallow underhook or armpit grip on one side, and a shallow overhook in the armpit on the other. You can tell it confuses the hell out of some of his opponents. It's very clearly an influence from bokh, the Mongolian wrestling style.
    If you can make them work, there's something too it. In his case, he's been doing them all his wrestling/judo career, I assume. Whether it's something he applied to judo to confuse his opponents and thus get a temporary advantage or part of his primary method, I don't know.

    I think it's good to eventually have a sort of hierarchy of how you compete (grips, throws, movement, etc.). You have your favorites, then you need answers to the answers your opponents will/may come up with to your best.

    As far as good judo or not, good judo follows the main principles of judo, regardless of grip or whatever. That's at a higher level of...thought, though. Judo certainly, when done well, has a certain look and feel to it, but that doesn't preclude other methods.
    Last edited by BKR; 2/26/2014 1:48pm at .
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  4. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/26/2014 2:16pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackmonk View Post
    Tempted to make another thread, because I'm afraid some of this will be buried...

    What are your preferred grips overall, and what do you think are the strongest grips?

    For example, I notice that a lot of Russian sambo players tend to prefer traditional judo-style grips overall, which is probably because they are usually judo players. Makes sense. The advantage here, I assume, is that traditional gripping creates a sort of frame in and of itself. Lots of makikomi, also.

    I notice that a lot of players from the former USSR on the western side (eastern europe) tend to like over-the-back grips, as this resembles some of the grips common in their indigenous wrestling styles.

    There is a Japanese sambo coach that advocates pocket grips, topside sleeve grips, and pistol grips almost exclusively, as he feels these are the strongest available.

    There are some examples. I really, really like 2-on-1 grips, because I am able to move my opponent without a lot of hip commitment, and my throw attempts are much harder to counter. It is also a good methodology against stronger and larger opponents. I also like over-the-back and makikomi grips, because it is almost inherent that their posture is broken at that point.

    What are your go-tos, and why?
    OK, you have to realize that my judo has changed over the years, with age, experience, learning/understanding new things, injury, rules changes, and the level of development of the judoka I might be teaching. So that's kind of a broad question.

    If you mean RIGHT NOW, for current judo rules, I'll do that now.

    Sleeve and lapel grip, with sleeve control (meaning uke hand off of my lapel...his "power hand" or tsurite, or low on my lapel (below his shoulder level), and a lapel grip at my shoulder level or higher (my shoulder is kinda fucked, well, really, is truly messed up, so a higher grip works a bit better.).

    Getting there is the hard part. The process of gripping, getting a useable grip, attacking, and dealing with your opponents gripping process and attacking is much broader.

    I will use a double lapel grip, or a shoulder pocket and lapel grip as part of that process. There are attacks that can be used from each full or partial grip situation. I use a lot of ashi waza, and have for a long time to go along with the gripping process. Rhadi showed one way to use Kouchi Gari in one of his videos I looked at, which would be one example of the idea.

    I use and teach two on one gripping as part of the gripping process, and have attacks from those situations that I do, but mostly teach now. When you get to two on one, your judo has to be a lot better, because control is more difficult.

    Pistol grips, et al, have their uses. If you want to lock onto a guy and attempt to totally control him, then a pistol or cat's paw grip and HCG or over the back grip are very useful. I do not particularly use them, myself. The various under/over hooks and other "wrestling" ties are useful, but I have never used them much.

    "Normal gripping" gives you the most flexibility and freedom of movement, and with sleeve control, good posture, can control your opponent pretty well.

    Wrestling Tie anecdote:

    Last weekend, I was coaching at the BC Winter Games judo shiai. There were two boys who used wrestling ties effectively, they got second and third place. They each had very strong counter throws to the rear, and strong hip throw attacks, and dumped some other kids spectacularly. In fact, one of them totally lifted one of my students up and over with an Ura Nage type throw when he stupidly went for a long range Osoto Gari while well ahead on the score. He barely turned out and got a face plant for his trouble.

    They looked to me to have recently moved to judo from wrestling. My student got first place by avoiding getting tied up by the bigger and stronger kids by using a gripping process that ended up with sleeve control and a HCG, plus movement with good posture. They couldn't pin him down with the closer ties because he controlled the distance. He could move and chose his shots, which he did. One of them also got frustrated about his inability to close the gap, which led to getting thrown.

    Had he got tied up, I guarantee they would have tossed him, because they were good at their primary style and strong as hell.

    Of course, it could go the other way as well, depending on relative skill level and luck !
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  5. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/27/2014 6:51pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Gratuitous Photo...sort of...

    This is from the BC Winter Games. No video, unfortunately. 252 of these were published to the web by the BC Games people, so no worries about posting photos on children who are not my own.

    White is a righty, blue is a lefty. Blue had been successful in earlier matches with strong under and over grip close-contact tactics, either using hip throws or strong rear counters. This was semi finals, I believe.

    Anyway, blue had just attempted a left hip throw if I recall correctly. You can see him pulling hard with right hand, but white had had it in his half of the space, so it gets stopped. That combined with the strong inside lapel grip by white shut down the attempt. You can see how hard blue was going, plus how he head jerked white around and partly off the ground.

    At least that's what I recall of it. Still photos of an instant in time in a match can be interpreted in different ways.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  6. blackmonk is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/01/2014 7:57am

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     Style: belt and jacket wrestling

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    ^^^ I don't see a picture.
  7. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/03/2014 9:16pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Sorry about that...


    Here's one that shows the middle of turning out of an ill advised Osoto Gari attempt. had a good grip, but wrong throw, wrong opponent posture.


    This was the result of an attempt at a an over-committed high collar grip without controlling the sleeve first. Nice use of an undergrip !

    Nidan Kosoto Gake/gari...was beautiful and painful to watch at the same time ! Bear hugs, who needs a bear hug ?


    This is what can happen when you let a skilled lefty get inside lapel and sleeve control !


    Once more, for emphasis !
    Last edited by BKR; 3/03/2014 9:17pm at . Reason: The links ae there, hopefully the pics will show !
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  8. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/04/2014 9:45pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    I'll try one more time...just links..it worked !

    http://flic.kr/p/kkZksR

    Here's one that shows the middle of turning out of an ill advised Osoto Gari attempt. had a good grip, but wrong throw, wrong opponent posture.
    http://flic.kr/p/kkYxWc


    This was the result of an attempt at a an over-committed high collar grip without controlling the sleeve first. Nice use of an undergrip ! Yeah, it was loud and painful for uke...
    http://flic.kr/p/knfgop


    This is what can happen when you let a skilled lefty get inside lapel and sleeve control !
    http://flic.kr/p/knhcBb

    Once more, for emphasis ! No let lefty inside with sleeve control !
    http://flic.kr/p/knfLJ6
    Last edited by BKR; 3/04/2014 9:48pm at .
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  9. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/04/2014 10:25pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Let's try this on for size, considering your posts about the Mongolian style.

    Your analysis?
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  10. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/04/2014 10:48pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Here's Travis Stevens in a prelim match at Dusseldorf, against a tough Georgian.

    I'm posting here because Travis has a different style/approach to kumi kata. It's reminiscent of Koga, in that Travis is a righty, but uses the lapel/armpit grip with the left hand (posting shoulder of Jimmy Pedro), and does not go for the RH sleeve control, but left.

    In this match, the Georgian was a tough cookie, and wanted the over the shoulder grip, which he got at times. You can see Travis snap/shrug it off as well as keep it at bay by skillful use of his right arm.

    Posting the shoulder is skill to cultivate, as it can lead to other useful grips depending on your type/style of gripping. In Travis's case, he appears to me to have built his "game" around it.

    Awesome Ippon Seoinage and even more awesome followup to ne waza to finish off the match.

    Falling for Judo since 1980
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