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  1. blackmonk is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/12/2014 4:34pm

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     Style: belt and jacket wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    He will position himself so that people will attack the side of his body with one arm, and because of the lack of friction related to him not having a hand or forearm, it is easy for him to float or flop on a throw and then counter.

    Does that make sense?
  2. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/12/2014 6:00pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Blog seems to be up and running, just not updated.

    That's good to know !
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  3. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/12/2014 6:07pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackmonk View Post
    He will position himself so that people will attack the side of his body with one arm, and because of the lack of friction related to him not having a hand or forearm, it is easy for him to float or flop on a throw and then counter.

    Does that make sense?
    So his whole arm is towards you, his partial arm is away ? or the opposite ?

    It seems to me that once you have a two handed grip on him he would have problems. I'm thinking he must keep his grip probably on your lapel, kind of like the one handed grip judo tactic of long ago.

    I say control lead sleeve/arm strongly, or an arm drag on it, get in close and go from there. Although I'd bet he has decent defense against something so obvious.

    He's harder to armbar no doubt...

    Damn I miss kuchiki daoshi and kibisu gaeshi.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  4. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/12/2014 6:34pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by blackmonk View Post
    OK, my bad.

    Let's say he's a right-handed player, and he has procured a lapel grip with his right hand. His left still has not captured a sleeve.

    Scenario 1: I am right-handed

    Scenario 2: I am left-handed

    Hope that helps.
    Somehow I thought you wanted a situation in which you could not cut his grip. I'll proceed accordingly, as judoka_UK gave a synopsis of using grip cuts.

    Left sided scenario

    This is opposite grips situation (kenka yotsu). You are a lefty, he is a righty. He has gripped your left lapel with his right hand, and does not have your sleeve. This is correct/basic action in this situation for him.

    Understand that relative height, reach, and exactly where he is gripping you will determine your options.

    You need to get an inside grip on his lapel and keep him off of your right sleeve. This may be difficult without cutting grip, especially if the guy knows what he is doing.

    1.) Depending on how he is holding you and his skill/experience level, you may be able to simply go inside and get a useable grip. Probably not !

    2.) If he is holding low on your lapel (or you are taller/longer reach), you can move a bit to his right (your left), get a lapel grip and hook your elbow inside of his, driving you elbow down inside of his.

    At that point, as an option, you can (try to) trap his arm between the back of your arm and your side by squeezing your arm tightly to you, with a hooking/lifting sort of action. You can stand a guy on his toes with this if you catch it correctly.

    Next, grip his left lapel with your right hand, on or above his collar bone, and draw you hand towards you right collar bone (exact location will vary). This should break his posture. You can try a throw from there (circling him to your left standard movement). Or, if he reaches for your right hand, you can catch his sleeve and control. You may be able to do that anyway depending on the situation.

    As a variation, you can grab the end of his right sleeve with your left hand, get an overgrip on his right lapel, move to your left as you reach for the grip on his right lapel with your left hand, and kind of straighten/control his arm. You have to watch out for him grabbing your right sleeve though at that point. You may have to cut that grip if he gets it before you consolidate your lapel grip.

    2.) Develop your over/outside grip and don't worry about the inside grip. This is something you will want to develop as a contingency for sure. Some judoka use it as a primary grip in opposite grip situation. You have to keep your left elbow down very strongly and put pressure on his right arm to the inside, without giving up your posture/balance. From there, go for his left side lapel as above and attack, or work for his left sleeve.

    The fact that you can use leg picks in Sambo opens up a lot more possibilities for you by switching levels off the one sided grip scenario. At the least an hand to leg attack will often open the guy up or distract him so you can consolidate a two handed grip. Now we can just use mostly movement and ashi waza in Judo, although those are not exactly weak options.

    Adding in grip cuts opens your options, as you know. However, as you've posted before, you can't always break a grip, and need to be prepared to deal with that situation.

    3.) another trick I use is to cross grip low on his right lapel with your right hand, and feed the lapel into your left hand from the inside. This is hard to describe, because you have to move to your right and get the angle correct, and kind of swim your (left hand) lapel grip inside at the same time. You have to do it quickly, or he can grab your right hand for sleeve control (which you MAY be able to cut right away).

    4.) You can also use your right hand to "swat" or push his right arm from the inside to make space for your left hand/arm to get inside of his and grab the lapel. Same caveat as in 3 regarding him getting your right sleeve.

    5.) One more...If you have an outside grip on his lapel (see 2.above) you can pressure from the outside, and then release the pressure, which may open some space for you to switch to an inside grip. You can combine that with 3. and 4.

    None of that is easy against a guy who is skilled against opposite grip players. Usually, lefties are really tough, because they hone their skills constantly against righties, who are in the majority.
    Last edited by BKR; 2/12/2014 6:48pm at .
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  5. blackmonk is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/16/2014 7:18pm

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     Style: belt and jacket wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yesterday, we did some great drills where uke procured a firm lapel grip, and then sparring began. Tori was forced to deal with an already-established lapel grip, while not initially having a grip of their own. We would reset after a throw had been achieved, or the lapel grip was broken. It made for very challenging sparring, because uke having the lapel grip first was such a colossal advantage. There were very few throws, and the throws that did happen were not big and beautiful. Pretty cool.

    I worked through some of the Rhadi Ferguson grip stuff that I've been watching... Namely, getting taking both grips on the lapel and working hard snapdowns, throwing out some ashi waza, and then regripping during ashi waza. It actually worked super well. Even against good guys at the club, that double lapel snapdown was breaking people in half. Double lapels also seemed to buy a little bit of time, if I felt in danger of being thrown.
  6. blackmonk is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/16/2014 7:27pm

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     Style: belt and jacket wrestling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Also playing around with the sort of "wrestling" grips and stance that Tsagaanbaatar uses, although that is supposedly not good judo, according to many coaches.

    He makes it work at extremely high levels, so there must be something to it. My favorite it when he gets a shallow underhook or armpit grip on one side, and a shallow overhook in the armpit on the other. You can tell it confuses the hell out of some of his opponents. It's very clearly an influence from bokh, the Mongolian wrestling style.
  7. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/18/2014 2:28pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackmonk View Post
    Yesterday, we did some great drills where uke procured a firm lapel grip, and then sparring began. Tori was forced to deal with an already-established lapel grip, while not initially having a grip of their own. We would reset after a throw had been achieved, or the lapel grip was broken. It made for very challenging sparring, because uke having the lapel grip first was such a colossal advantage. There were very few throws, and the throws that did happen were not big and beautiful. Pretty cool.

    I worked through some of the Rhadi Ferguson grip stuff that I've been watching... Namely, getting taking both grips on the lapel and working hard snapdowns, throwing out some ashi waza, and then regripping during ashi waza. It actually worked super well. Even against good guys at the club, that double lapel snapdown was breaking people in half. Double lapels also seemed to buy a little bit of time, if I felt in danger of being thrown.
    That's interesting.
    1.) Did you find it easier or harder to deal with depending on which lapel was taken ? 2.) Judo rules or Sambo rules ?
    3.)How much do you guys emphasize being righty or lefty in your training ?
    Although I have my students choose a side that is most comfortable/natural for them, I make them attack/throw both right and left turning throws
    4.) What was so difficult about dealing with the single lapel grip ?

    Using ashi waza to open up gripping is what I consider a "next step" in learning grip-fighting. The ashi waza needs to be developed enough that tori can keep his balance and still be coordinated enough to grip effectively. The basics of where/how to grab, how to maintain posture/grip relations, cutting grip and re-grip tactics, angles, etc., and how to move are so important to have in place to build upon.

    I like double lapel grips and have advocated using them for quite some time. They require a certain amount of coordination to use effectively in throwing. We were in fact working on a grip sequence for the past few days that uses the double lapel grip.

    In Judo at least, the sleeve is usually well defended. My thing is, if uke is so intent on not letting you have a sleeve grip, the lapel is often open, and has the benefit of negating the sleeve grip on yourself.

    You can attack off the single lapel grip, or use it to move uke and catch a sleeve, or double lapel and catch the sleeve, or throw off the double lapel. Add in hand to leg attacks as in Sambo, and you can keep your opponent on the defensive and jumping from place to place, unable to mount effective offense.

    Of course, that's the idea. Much more often easier said than done !

    The hard snap down I could not often make work on equally skilled/conditioned judoka. Certainly not bending guys in half, LOL ! Certainly a "wave" or "bob" (as I call it) action can get things moving, though. Sometimes...
    Last edited by BKR; 2/18/2014 2:38pm at .
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  8. blackmonk is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/18/2014 4:14pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    That's interesting.
    1.) Did you find it easier or harder to deal with depending on which lapel was taken ? 2.) Judo rules or Sambo rules ?
    3.)How much do you guys emphasize being righty or lefty in your training ?
    Although I have my students choose a side that is most comfortable/natural for them, I make them attack/throw both right and left turning throws
    4.) What was so difficult about dealing with the single lapel grip ?
    I have a harder time against other lefties, because I'm used to playing with right-handed players.

    Sambo rules.

    We definitely train both sides, but of course people will favor one side or the other, at least initially. I have grips that I favor from both sides... For example, I play lefty, but when I do go right, it is often a HCG.

    The difficulty was that they had a dominant grip, and you had no grips. They were, at least initially, able to control you much more than you could control them. I was collapsing that arm at the elbow, pressuring their elbow to the inside, or cross-gripping over the top. I tried grip breaks, also, but that was hard, as well, since they were able to sink into the grip before sparring started.
  9. BKR is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/18/2014 6:06pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    That's interesting.
    1.) Did you find it easier or harder to deal with depending on which lapel was taken ? 2.) Judo rules or Sambo rules ?
    3.)How much do you guys emphasize being righty or lefty in your training ?
    Although I have my students choose a side that is most comfortable/natural for them, I make them attack/throw both right and left turning throws
    4.) What was so difficult about dealing with the single lapel grip ?
    I have a harder time against other lefties, because I'm used to playing with right-handed players.

    Sambo rules.

    We definitely train both sides, but of course people will favor one side or the other, at least initially. I have grips that I favor from both sides... For example, I play lefty, but when I do go right, it is often a HCG.

    The difficulty was that they had a dominant grip, and you had no grips. They were, at least initially, able to control you much more than you could control them. I was collapsing that arm at the elbow, pressuring their elbow to the inside, or cross-gripping over the top. I tried grip breaks, also, but that was hard, as well, since they were able to sink into the grip before sparring started.
    Sambo rules would open it up quite a bit from current Judo rules, LOL !

    I understand the difficulty, although I don't necessarily consider a one handed grip a dominant grip. Depends on what exactly it is. At least for the most part only ones side of your body is potentially controlled. Still, with a strong grip sunk, getting it cut or working around it is tough nut to crack. I especially dislike HCG or further over the shoulder type of grips.

    One thing I like to do is use an attempted grip break to initiate movement or a throw attempt. For example, if the guy has a HCG on my left collar, I'll attempt to cut the grip by grasping his right sleeve near the opening with my left hand, shrug and trap the hand and turn hard to might right to pop off the grip. Either it comes off or I get a reaction and can roll into an Ippon Seoi Nage or Kouchi Gari or even Kosoto Gari (this all depends on exactly how he reacts). Using two handed grip breaks helps out a LOT.

    Grip fighting is necessary for competition these days, but it requires a lot of patience and conditioning. Honestly, I get tired of it quickly and tire quickly when into it heavily, as I don't train that way anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    That's interesting.
    1.) Did you find it easier or harder to deal with depending on which lapel was taken ? 2.) Judo rules or Sambo rules ?
    3.)How much do you guys emphasize being righty or lefty in your training ?
    Although I have my students choose a side that is most comfortable/natural for them, I make them attack/throw both right and left turning throws
    4.) What was so difficult about dealing with the single lapel grip ?
    I have a harder time against other lefties, because I'm used to playing with right-handed players.

    Sambo rules.

    We definitely train both sides, but of course people will favor one side or the other, at least initially. I have grips that I favor from both sides... For example, I play lefty, but when I do go right, it is often a HCG.

    The difficulty was that they had a dominant grip, and you had no grips. They were, at least initially, able to control you much more than you could control them. I was collapsing that arm at the elbow, pressuring their elbow to the inside, or cross-gripping over the top. I tried grip breaks, also, but that was hard, as well, since they were able to sink into the grip before sparring started.
    Sambo rules would open it up quite a bit from current Judo rules, LOL !

    I understand the difficulty, although I don't necessarily consider a one handed grip a dominant grip. Depends on what exactly it is. At least for the most part only ones side of your body is potentially controlled. Still, with a strong grip sunk, getting it cut or working around it is tough nut to crack. I especially dislike HCG or further over the shoulder type of grips.

    One thing I like to do is use an attempted grip break to initiate movement or a throw attempt. For example, if the guy has a HCG on my left collar, I'll attempt to cut the grip by grasping his right sleeve near the opening with my left hand, shrug and trap the hand and turn hard to might right to pop off the grip. Either it comes off or I get a reaction and can roll into an Ippon Seoi Nage or Kouchi Gari or even Kosoto Gari (this all depends on exactly how he reacts). Using two handed grip breaks helps out a LOT.

    Grip fighting is necessary for competition these days, but it requires a lot of patience and conditioning. Honestly, I get tired of it quickly and tire quickly when into it heavily, as I don't train that way anymore.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  10. blackmonk is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/18/2014 11:31pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    When I couldn't get the right-handed grip off my left lapel today, I turned it into a tai otoshi. Worked ok. The two-hands-on-one-wrist/forearm kinda tai o.

    We did 4-minute rounds of just hard grip-breaking for about 30 minutes, and then another 30 minutes of constant pulling/kuzushi in 2-minute rounds. Good for conditioning. I'm going back to Moscow to get my ass kicked at the Kharlampiev Cup in a few weeks, so my biggest chance of lasting an entire match is to push the pace, and give them hell with grips and kuzushi.

    One of the guys that I competed with last time won his first match by just pacing the **** out of the other guy. Never stopped moving.
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