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  1. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    2/11/2014 4:16pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by blackmonk View Post
    Ok, my bad.

    Let's say he's a right-handed player, and he has procured a lapel grip with his right hand. His left still has not captured a sleeve.

    Scenario 1: I am right-handed

    Scenario 2: I am left-handed

    Hope that helps.
    Sceneario 1: Ai Yotsu (I know you love the judo terminology, LOL ! ) If he reached with his right hand that is a basic mistake on his part for a righty to make against another righty, because he has exposed his sleeve to you and put it into your space on the side that you want it. However, if he cross gripped your left lapel with his left hand first to disrupt your balance and feed the lapel to his right hand, not so bad for him. That is a workable sequence.

    You can do a couple of different things besides cutting grip.

    1.) "Post the shoulder": This is Jimmy Pedro's terminology. Go inside his RH lapel grip and (if you can) directly at about collarbone level or a little higher. Use this to create some distance/space ("framing"). I like to angle off to keep my right hand away from him. Keep your right hand back, as that is the next thing he probably is aiming for...you to reach to cut grip with your RH so he can grab it with his left, or go for a double lapel grip, or make some sort of one handed attack.

    2.) You can cross grip his left lapel with your left hand, same time moving in that direction, same time maneuvering yourself in that direction and feed the lapel into your right hand. By moving to your right, you create some space and can go to a double lapel grip, keeping inside control on both sides. At some point he me or may not release his grip on your right lapel and you may be able to get his sleeve at that point. What I do is have an attack I can use from the one handed "shoulder post", as well as the double lapel grip.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  2. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/11/2014 6:22pm

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     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by blackmonk View Post
    Ok, my bad.

    Let's say he's a right-handed player, and he has procured a lapel grip with his right hand. His left still has not captured a sleeve.

    Scenario 1: I am right-handed

    Scenario 2: I am left-handed

    Hope that helps.
    Scenario 1: You have a right handed opponent who has his right hand on your lapel

    Assuming you both have a grip on each other's lapel you're in a quite weird position of both having a lapel grip, but no sleeve grip. In which case you should grip your opponent's lapel hand sleeve at the wrist with your left hand and your own lapel just below their wrist with your right hand. You should turn your body retracting your right shoulder, pushing away and downwards with your left hand and pulling your right hand across your chest.

    This should leave you controlling your opponents sleeve end with your left hand and them having no hand on you. Then aggressively throw your right to grip their jacket in your preferred position.

    Again if you're a lefty repeat the above, but substituting right for left.

    If you're a righty who has a lefty gripping their lapel or vice versa then the simplest method is to grip the sleeve/wrist with both hands and break the grip. Then utilise the non-lapel hand to pin their sleeve down and assert your lapel grip with your dominant hand.
  3. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    2/11/2014 7:04pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Scenario 1: You have a right handed opponent who has his right hand on your lapel

    Assuming you both have a grip on each other's lapel you're in a quite weird position of both having a lapel grip, but no sleeve grip. In which case you should grip your opponent's lapel hand sleeve at the wrist with your left hand and your own lapel just below their wrist with your right hand. You should turn your body retracting your right shoulder, pushing away and downwards with your left hand and pulling your right hand across your chest.

    This should leave you controlling your opponents sleeve end with your left hand and them having no hand on you. Then aggressively throw your right to grip their jacket in your preferred position.

    Again if you're a lefty repeat the above, but substituting right for left.

    If you're a righty who has a lefty gripping their lapel or vice versa then the simplest method is to grip the sleeve/wrist with both hands and break the grip. Then utilise the non-lapel hand to pin their sleeve down and assert your lapel grip with your dominant hand.
    Holy crap, you're still alive ! Someone recently told your blog was extinct.

    However, he requested a solution for the situation in which you can't break his grip. Which makes it a bit more interesting, but is realistic.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  4. Ming Loyalist is offline
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    solves problems with violence

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    Posted On:
    2/11/2014 8:54pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo, Hung Family Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Holy crap, you're still alive ! Someone recently told your blog was extinct.
    indeed. the blog is gone, and there has been some wailing and gnashing of teeth on reddit about it.
    "Face punches are an essential character building part of a martial art. You don't truly love your children unless you allow them to get punched in the face." - chi-conspiricy
    "When I was a little boy, I had a sailor suit, but it didn't mean I was in the Navy." - Mtripp on the subject of a 5 year old karate black belt
    "Without actual qualifications to be a Zen teacher, your instructor is just another roundeye raping Asian culture for a buck." - Errant108
    "Seriously, who gives a **** what you or Errant think? You're Asian males, everyone just ignores you, unless you're in a krotty movie." - new2bjj
  5. blackmonk is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/11/2014 10:50pm

    supporting member
     Style: belt and jacket wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Sceneario 1: Ai Yotsu (I know you love the judo terminology, LOL ! ) If he reached with his right hand that is a basic mistake on his part for a righty to make against another righty, because he has exposed his sleeve to you and put it into your space on the side that you want it. However, if he cross gripped your left lapel with his left hand first to disrupt your balance and feed the lapel to his right hand, not so bad for him. That is a workable sequence.

    You can do a couple of different things besides cutting grip.

    1.) "Post the shoulder": This is Jimmy Pedro's terminology. Go inside his RH lapel grip and (if you can) directly at about collarbone level or a little higher. Use this to create some distance/space ("framing"). I like to angle off to keep my right hand away from him. Keep your right hand back, as that is the next thing he probably is aiming for...you to reach to cut grip with your RH so he can grab it with his left, or go for a double lapel grip, or make some sort of one handed attack.

    2.) You can cross grip his left lapel with your left hand, same time moving in that direction, same time maneuvering yourself in that direction and feed the lapel into your right hand. By moving to your right, you create some space and can go to a double lapel grip, keeping inside control on both sides. At some point he me or may not release his grip on your right lapel and you may be able to get his sleeve at that point. What I do is have an attack I can use from the one handed "shoulder post", as well as the double lapel grip.
    Worked 1 and 2 a bit this evening, but everyone was too banged up and tired from the tournament this weekend to go hard. Every match was incredibly intense, so I understand a bit... Just disappointed we couldn't break more of a sweat. My right knee, left ankle, and back are still screwed up from it. I laid up in bed all day Sunday, LOL.

    Nevertheless, I worked the "frame" a little bit, taking inside grip underneath their lapel grip. One of the guys I train with said he's always scared of getting thrown with seoi from that position, but I don't think I've ever had that problem.

    I also worked taking a lapel grip and intercepting uke's counter grip over the top... Seemed a little awkward to reach over the top, sometimes. This is something that I've seen Pedro and Ferguson do.
  6. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    2/12/2014 12:41pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by blackmonk View Post
    Worked 1 and 2 a bit this evening, but everyone was too banged up and tired from the tournament this weekend to go hard. Every match was incredibly intense, so I understand a bit... Just disappointed we couldn't break more of a sweat. My right knee, left ankle, and back are still screwed up from it. I laid up in bed all day Sunday, LOL.

    Nevertheless, I worked the "frame" a little bit, taking inside grip underneath their lapel grip. One of the guys I train with said he's always scared of getting thrown with seoi from that position, but I don't think I've ever had that problem.

    I also worked taking a lapel grip and intercepting uke's counter grip over the top... Seemed a little awkward to reach over the top, sometimes. This is something that I've seen Pedro and Ferguson do.
    Yeah, got any video of those matches? I'd love to see a standing Kata Guruma !

    You can train the sequences without resistance, as well, to get the patterns down, when first learning or worn out from other training.

    Make a "grip" kata out of them, LOL...that's what I do. Then you can get to the point where both of you can go full speed.

    Regarding the seoi nage, yes, that is a danger, as the overgrip on your lapel lends itself to that, as it also does to a single grip De Ashi Barai, or some nice leg picks. If your opponent puts a lot of pressure to the inside, against your inside grip, it can tend to neutralize you. In fact, I used Seoi Nage from that overgrip quite a bit.

    One thing I emphasize is using movement and changing angles as you grip, and that gripping is not a static activity, but has to be integrated with your posture, movement, and attacks. This is what makes it so difficult and leads to the "washing machine" effect your described earlier, although that is not necessarily an effect of the highest level of application.

    Realize that I am (was) a -65/66/73 kilo competitor in Judo, being small and very quick, and often out-strength-ed despite extensive weight training, so that may prejudice my viewpoint regarding grip/move/throw/angle change etc. Regardless, I try to go on general principles/mechanics rather than just what "worked for me".

    I also worked taking a lapel grip and intercepting uke's counter grip over the top... Seemed a little awkward to reach over the top, sometimes. This is something that I've seen Pedro and Ferguson do.
    A standard approach when you can't get the sleeve (this is ai yotsu) is to "post the shoulder' (Pedro terminology), that is gripping opponents right lapel with your left hand on his collar bone or slightly above (will vary depending on relative height/reach. You use the "framing" action and movement/angle change to control distance/space and keep him off of the high collar grip, or set up a single grip attack (kata guruma and various leg picks come to mind...). In the meantime, you can work to get his sleeve with your right hand (cross grip) as he reaches and attempts to grip.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  7. NeilG is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/12/2014 1:11pm


     Style: Kendo

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I keep waiting on Ben to tell me how to fight gips. I keep getting pounded by those MFs, I need some tips.
  8. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    2/12/2014 1:30pm

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by NeilG View Post
    I keep waiting on Ben to tell me how to fight gips. I keep getting pounded by those MFs, I need some tips.
    Is gip some sort of Canadian slang, eh?
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  9. blackmonk is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/12/2014 2:12pm

    supporting member
     Style: belt and jacket wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Yeah, got any video of those matches? I'd love to see a standing Kata Guruma !

    You can train the sequences without resistance, as well, to get the patterns down, when first learning or worn out from other training.

    Make a "grip" kata out of them, LOL...that's what I do. Then you can get to the point where both of you can go full speed.

    Regarding the seoi nage, yes, that is a danger, as the overgrip on your lapel lends itself to that, as it also does to a single grip De Ashi Barai, or some nice leg picks. If your opponent puts a lot of pressure to the inside, against your inside grip, it can tend to neutralize you. In fact, I used Seoi Nage from that overgrip quite a bit.

    One thing I emphasize is using movement and changing angles as you grip, and that gripping is not a static activity, but has to be integrated with your posture, movement, and attacks. This is what makes it so difficult and leads to the "washing machine" effect your described earlier, although that is not necessarily an effect of the highest level of application.

    Realize that I am (was) a -65/66/73 kilo competitor in Judo, being small and very quick, and often out-strength-ed despite extensive weight training, so that may prejudice my viewpoint regarding grip/move/throw/angle change etc. Regardless, I try to go on general principles/mechanics rather than just what "worked for me".



    A standard approach when you can't get the sleeve (this is ai yotsu) is to "post the shoulder' (Pedro terminology), that is gripping opponents right lapel with your left hand on his collar bone or slightly above (will vary depending on relative height/reach. You use the "framing" action and movement/angle change to control distance/space and keep him off of the high collar grip, or set up a single grip attack (kata guruma and various leg picks come to mind...). In the meantime, you can work to get his sleeve with your right hand (cross grip) as he reaches and attempts to grip.
    I was both competing and refereeing, so I wasn't able to get any video myself, and I don't think anyone got video of my matches.

    He started to struggle when I elevated him and was able to flop out, so I only scored one or two points. Very, very tricky opponent because he only has one arm. People think that would be a disadvantage, but he has crafted his game to make it work in his favor.
  10. BKR is offline
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    My dog is cuter and smarter than yours.

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    Posted On:
    2/12/2014 3:05pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kodokan Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by blackmonk View Post
    I was both competing and refereeing, so I wasn't able to get any video myself, and I don't think anyone got video of my matches.

    He started to struggle when I elevated him and was able to flop out, so I only scored one or two points. Very, very tricky opponent because he only has one arm. People think that would be a disadvantage, but he has crafted his game to make it work in his favor.
    Now that would be interesting, a one armed opponent who is skilled !

    many years ago (decades) there was a one legged judoka who competed at nationals. I saw him compete one year at nationals in the Masters division. He medalled...

    There was a guy with a crippled arm I used to see occasionally. I fought a couple of matches against him.

    No, I didn't arm bar the bad arm, although it wasn't off limits !

    I'll get to the lefty version of your question sooner or later.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
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